Correlation between attempted guillotines and losing fights?

[GreatWhiteBuffalo]

Guillotines are one of the most common, highly accessible, and rewarding submissions there are to be proficient at. Having a strong guillotine threat literally reshapes the whole landscape of gameplanning with a fighter, either for or against. Just look at guys like Brian Ortega; if he didn't have that guillotine threat, he would have been getting taken down, wall-n-stalled, and wrestlefucked long before even sniffing the top 5, let alone a shitle shot. Yet because he does, he isn't, so he is.

Right, and Ortega certainly isn’t an average guillotine submission artist. Using outliers as counterexamples don’t service this discussion.

 

[ArtOfDrowning]

No one does it like CM Punk.

The infamous Sloth Guillotine

 

[GreatWhiteBuffalo]

Fucking retarded.

Is there a correlation between a missed punch and losing? Not one technique in MMA is a guarantee. I'll tell you this though, some have possibly lost fights for NOT trying for a guillotine, imo...I'm looking at you Maia vs Colby, and RDA vs Colby. Admittedly Colby avoided the clinch with Damien like the plaque, and RDA was clinched up against the fence for like 80% of the fight, but only tried once.

TS, when you haven't seen one finish a fight, in any professional MMA organization in a year period, then make this thread.

Damn retarded post, it makes me wonder the age and iq of you fucks. Disparage my point because fucking Brian Ortega is good at them? Suck some dong kid

 

[EndlessCritic]

I can’t think of a whole lot of recent fights where going for a guillotine bit someone in the ass

Sunabe just slam KO'ed Murofushi out of a guillotine to defend his pancrase belt.

And, before some jackass says "Who?", Fightmatrix has Sunabe ranked #1 in the world: http://www.fightmatrix.com/mma-ranks/strawweight/

 

[rmongler]

Right, and Ortega certainly isn’t an average guillotine submission artist. Using outliers as counterexamples don’t service this discussion.

The only submission more common than guillotines in the UFC is the rear naked choke.

 

[GreatWhiteBuffalo]

The only submission more common than guillotines in the UFC is the rear naked choke.

I never disputed that. My question is the correlation between guillotine attempts and wins/losses. Obviously there are guys who are great at it. But for so many it seems to put them in bad position with gassed arms.

 

[machidafan99]

fire up those stats,

arms pumped out after a failed guillotine leading to an eventual loss.

 

[WinZip]

I remember seeing a fight where one fighter decided to throw himself into a flying guillotine. He failed and spent the round getting GnP'd.

Second round, the same guy does the same thing and spends another round getting GnP'd

Third round, the same guy does the same thing AGAIN and loses another round badly.

He lost 30-27 in a very strange fight

 

[Taric]

Ask Chad how he feels about it.

Mendes attempted 2 guillotines against Conor.

Conor would still be laying under Chad Mendez today if not for his attempts.

This guy knows.

 

[Alxair]

I hate guillotines. They often seem so desperate and uneconomical.

Yeah I'm sure there are some guys that can make it work but overwhelmingly it seems to be a bad submission.

 

[Flboycanscrap2]

The guillotine has evolved into the Ninja Choke. Far less risky.

 

[rmongler]

I never disputed that. My question is the correlation between guillotine attempts and wins/losses. Obviously there are guys who are great at it. But for so many it seems to put them in bad position with gassed arms.

Well, if Chael Sonnen were to get a fight with Anderson Silva, i wouldn't recommend he go in with a strategy looking to try and outbox him. If you understand my meaning.

Alternately, if Michael Bisping got a fight with Anderson Silva, then i would recommend he try to outbox him. I'd wager if he tried to spend the fight shooting single legs though, he wouldn't look so good.


I know what you mean, and i've seen it happen, i just don't agree with the conclusion you're drawing from it. It's kinda like saying... people who fail takedowns tend to lose in fights where they failed to get a takedown. Well, no duh.

Does that mean they should stop training takedowns? Or rather, that there is no benefit to doing so? It's precisely so that they might succeed that it'd be valuable to increase their proficiency with it (or in particular, start doing it in ways that do lead to success and do not lead to failing in such ways).

Really, the thing with guillotines is that it's not really 'just' a 'grappler guy' move, pretty much everyone can benefit from developing a stronger front headlock attack, whether they are an out-fighter, clinch-fighter, or ground-fighter.

Take Cody McKenzie for instance. The guy was practically a complete bum (literally), but because he had a good guillotine, he was able to pull bullshit wins off against many fighters who could quite well have been more ultimately talented than him and were superior in many other facets of fighting... but for that.

Just as an aside, another interesting statistic; out of the 20 fastest submissions in UFC history, the most frequent came by way of front headlock chokes; twice as many in fact (8) as the next runner up (arm bars [4]). (The others were ankle locks/heel hooks [2/2], RNCs [3], and calf crusher [1]).

 

[Agent Mulder's Hair]

No one does it like CM Punk.

<Lmaoo>

 

[Ozze]

Guillotines are only weird when they're both standing up and on guy pulls guard to try the choke.
He doesn't get it and now he'll spend the rest of the round on the bottom.

But if you're already being taken down, or is on the bottom, it's a solid technique.

 

[LukeSkyrocker]

I don’t agree that armbars are obsolete. Unlike armbars though, guillotine attempts don’t usually risk losing position. Yeah you can gas your arms, but most experienced fighters know when to crank and when to give it up.

I can’t think of a whole lot of recent fights where going for a guillotine bit someone in the ass

Poirier on Alvarez 2, except Alvarez shit the bed shortly after

 

[Wicked_1]

Chad was gassed so he went for it. It cost him the position and the fight. Ive seen overeem do standing guillotines and win and it was nasty. Its generally just a bad decision to try to guillotine a sweaty guy and give up top position. I dont see an issue if its someone like t city, cause no one wants to be in his guard really, where as overeem isnt as good on his back, so its a bad idea. Armbars are not gone, the threat is always there. People dont leave their arms out like they used to, so u see less of them, just like triangles. When royce was subbing everyone it was because people didnt know how to defend it. No days everyone in the ufc should know how to defend those subs. Some guys it doesnt matter tho cause they can trick u into it or move for anotber sub in an instant like damien does.

 

[rmongler]

Here's an example of how to do a front headlock right.


(13:50)


A few more too:


(2:00, 4:00)






The student might notice common features in all these finishes.

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

You're probably right but I'm still tryna grab that neck every time.

 

[EXOICHO]

No one does it like CM Punk.

You know, the sad thing is, is that when Punk did this, any belief that he might actually have been training to fight was thrown into the garbage. Nobody past their first two weeks of BJJ does shit like this.

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

Here's an example of how to do a front headlock right.


(13:50)


A few more too:


(2:00, 4:00)






The student might notice common features in all these finishes.

Very nice.