Common mistakes that leach power from punches.

[Sano]

something that is decelerating on impact with the target is a push by definition. an object must be accelerating on impact to be considered a strike. this is the snap you are talking about, if a punch isn't accelerating it is just a push with the knuckles. its a weird trick of physics and don't quote me on it, but an object that is traveling at slightly slower speed but is still accelerating, imparts more force than a faster moving object that is slowing down. maybe someone more educated than me like @Sano can provide the proper equation for it.

I wouldn't quite say that something that is decelerating on impact is a push by definition. I mean you can start from a standstill and still accelerate, albeit slowly, while pushing something, or a bag. It's just a very slow acceleration. I do get your point though.

I don't exactly know if it's the fixed level of acceleration (m/s) or velocity on impact that matters more than if the punch is accelerating or decelerating at that moment. I know a little bit about angular velocities and force production, but that's a little more complicated than what I've worked with. Basics of force is F = m x a, as you know, and it doesn't really account for that. However, it also goes to show how oversimplified that formula is in regards to the human body. This is not a train or a car hitting a wall. The human body is infinitely more complex. During impact, the effect of the mass can change in an instant, including variables like you already mentioned like alignment, weight transfer, but also tension at the point of impact. Another thing that plays into it, is which kind of punch is being thrown, at what target, how far away so on.

In this study (1) they used an accelerometer on various amateur boxers with varying experience, during a jab and cross

The blue line, x, is the acceleration. Here it topped out about halfway through full extension and started decelerating preparing to be joltet back to the guard. However this is hitting air with straight punches, things change when there is force applied to an object and when the punches change. Also they were instructed to hit as fast as possible, so it's more of a speed thing. Maybe however, straight punches generally tops out a little before full extension as you are recoiling back into the guard.

In this little interesting experiment on amateur boxers concluded that velocity was the main driver of force over biomechanical application, although the two have something to do with each other (2). It's hard to really conlcude anything though, other than velocity is very important.

I found this interesting one with the Klitschko brothers measuring acceleration during a punch on the heavybag (3). Unfortunately, it doesn't state which kind of punch and in general is not that high quality. It looks to me like it was a lead hook, which would make sense with the findings. Here it shows that acceleration was constant, although declining, throughout the punch, reaching maximum velocity right as the punch reached the bag. The bag contact was also only 20ms, which shows a powerful snap and recoil, which is well within the limits of the stretch shortening cycle/SSC (> 200ms):

In baseball pitching, which is probably the type of throwing activity that is most simular biomechanically to an overhand, the acceleration keeps increasing untill ball release, whereafter the deceleration starts (4). Ball release being a very simular end position as the end position of the overhand reaching the target:

So in this case it's fair to assume as well that the punch accelerates untill impact. Btw, baseball pitchers create tremendous amounts of G force in their hips, torso, shoulders and wrists. Much more than any boxer, however they also end up like this:

It does lead into the other thing you guys were discussing though, and what @YoungCashMoney was saying, which is that there are several ways to generate power in a punch. As I wrote about in the old thread about power production: http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/125416715/

Sitting down using primarily vertical reactionary forces while transferring the energy, or exploding forward more using more horizontal reactionary forces, like a pitcher or a javelin thrower. Realisticly, you use both forces but keep the horizontal one under control to stay balanced, depending on the situation.

This probably didn't help much. Generally there's not very much in the literature about boxing mechanics and kinetic transfer and most of it is pretty poor quality. I wish we had something like this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445080/. However, this one (5) was interesting in discussing how lower body power matters in punching power, the SSC, how individuals can have slightly different patterns that should be encouraged if they work for them and how lighter amateurs might emphasize speed while HW pro boxers deliver power at closer range with a more flexed elbow position to deliver more effective mass. Then again that differs from person to person too.

It is certainly clear that velocity is important, and that most punches seem to keep accelerating untill meeting the target, if the punch is a power punch. However depending on the goal and defensive responsibility, maybe especially straight punches use more of the SSC and decelerate before impact. I can also imagine that being the case with combination punches as you need to retract faster. Weight also seems to matter in the way a punch is thrown.

I'm compiling a lot of this stuff and at some point when I get my blog up and running I'll try to cover it more in depth and make some actual practical applications out of it. Btw, sounds very interesting with your idea about trying to exponentially accelerate untill contact with the heavybag to practice the power @eternaldarkness. That's one I need to try out.

 

[j123]

1. Not taking PEDs

 

[Bubblun]

Sorry but if you watch actual high level boxing you could see all your points being untrue.

Here Floyd is leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching, and he does it all the time.
Pacquiao same story.

Particularly funny to me is that there is this dumb idea that in boxing you always have to keep your elbows in and your punches need to have a straight line, basically from a stance like this

It looks silly and it is.
If you want to have some kind of punching power you need to flare those damn elbows.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I wouldn't quite say that something that is decelerating on impact is a push by definition. I mean you can start from a standstill and still accelerate, albeit slowly, while pushing something, or a bag. It's just a very slow acceleration. I do get your point though.

I don't exactly know if it's the fixed level of acceleration (m/s) or velocity on impact that matters more than if the punch is accelerating or decelerating at that moment. I know a little bit about angular velocities and force production, but that's a little more complicated than what I've worked with. Basics of force is F = m x a, as you know, and it doesn't really account for that. However, it also goes to show how oversimplified that formula is in regards to the human body. This is not a train or a car hitting a wall. The human body is infinitely more complex. During impact, the effect of the mass can change in an instant, including variables like you already mentioned like alignment, weight transfer, but also tension at the point of impact. Another thing that plays into it, is which kind of punch is being thrown, at what target, how far away so on.

In this study (1) they used an accelerometer on various amateur boxers with varying experience, during a jab and cross

The blue line, x, is the acceleration. Here it topped out about halfway through full extension and started decelerating preparing to be joltet back to the guard. However this is hitting air with straight punches, things change when there is force applied to an object and when the punches change. Also they were instructed to hit as fast as possible, so it's more of a speed thing. Maybe however, straight punches generally tops out a little before full extension as you are recoiling back into the guard.

In this little interesting experiment on amateur boxers concluded that velocity was the main driver of force over biomechanical application, although the two have something to do with each other (2). It's hard to really conlcude anything though, other than velocity is very important.

I found this interesting one with the Klitschko brothers measuring acceleration during a punch on the heavybag (3). Unfortunately, it doesn't state which kind of punch and in general is not that high quality. It looks to me like it was a lead hook, which would make sense with the findings. Here it shows that acceleration was constant, although declining, throughout the punch, reaching maximum velocity right as the punch reached the bag. The bag contact was also only 20ms, which shows a powerful snap and recoil, which is well within the limits of the stretch shortening cycle/SSC (> 200ms):

In baseball pitching, which is probably the type of throwing activity that is most simular biomechanically to an overhand, the acceleration keeps increasing untill ball release, whereafter the deceleration starts (4). Ball release being a very simular end position as the end position of the overhand reaching the target:

So in this case it's fair to assume as well that the punch accelerates untill impact. Btw, baseball pitchers create tremendous amounts of G force in their hips, torso, shoulders and wrists. Much more than any boxer, however they also end up like this:

It does lead into the other thing you guys were discussing though, and what @YoungCashMoney was saying, which is that there are several ways to generate power in a punch. As I wrote about in the old thread about power production: http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/125416715/

Sitting down using primarily vertical reactionary forces while transferring the energy, or exploding forward more using more horizontal reactionary forces, like a pitcher or a javelin thrower. Realisticly, you use both forces but keep the horizontal one under control to stay balanced, depending on the situation.

This probably didn't help much. Generally there's not very much in the literature about boxing mechanics and kinetic transfer and most of it is pretty poor quality. I wish we had something like this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445080/. However, this one (5) was interesting in discussing how lower body power matters in punching power, the SSC, how individuals can have slightly different patterns that should be encouraged if they work for them and how lighter amateurs might emphasize speed while HW pro boxers deliver power at closer range with a more flexed elbow position to deliver more effective mass. Then again that differs from person to person too.

It is certainly clear that velocity is important, and that most punches seem to keep accelerating untill meeting the target, if the punch is a power punch. However depending on the goal and defensive responsibility, maybe especially straight punches use more of the SSC and decelerate before impact. I can also imagine that being the case with combination punches as you need to retract faster. Weight also seems to matter in the way a punch is thrown.

I'm compiling a lot of this stuff and at some point when I get my blog up and running I'll try to cover it more in depth and make some actual practical applications out of it. Btw, sounds very interesting with your idea about trying to exponentially accelerate untill contact with the heavybag to practice the power @eternaldarkness. That's one I need to try out.

great stuff. thank for the in depth reasponse.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Sorry but if you watch actual high level boxing you could see all your points being untrue.

Here Floyd is leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching, and he does it all the time.
Pacquiao same story.

Particularly funny to me is that there is this dumb idea that in boxing you always have to keep your elbows in and your punches need to have a straight line, basically from a stance like this

It looks silly and it is.
If you want to have some kind of punching power you need to flare those damn elbows.

please don't talk about mayweather when talking about power punching. how much boxing have you done anyway champ?

 

[YoungCashMoney]

Sorry but if you watch actual high level boxing you could see all your points being untrue.

Here Floyd is leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching, and he does it all the time.
Pacquiao same story.

Particularly funny to me is that there is this dumb idea that in boxing you always have to keep your elbows in and your punches need to have a straight line, basically from a stance like this

It looks silly and it is.
If you want to have some kind of punching power you need to flare those damn elbows.

I would honestly say the number one most important thing with developing power in a punch, is to throw it in the way that feels most natural for the individual. All that basics "proper" way to turn the ankle and route to throw a punch nonsense is really just laziness. There's core pieces in that technique that are necessary for a good punch, but can be substituted for different movements that feel more comfortable to the individual.

It's all kinetic linking, that is the secret behind punching power. It's not heavy hands or pillow hands or any of that, look at any puncher and u will see where the power comes from.

Look at the first hook and watch my legs, as the shot lands you can see every muscle from my toes to hand flex at the exact same time. Connecting that and getting the timing and rhythm of ur body so all the muscles work together is what is more important.

Prinse Naseem Hamed? Same concept, would literally explode into punches. Pacman? same thing with his feet, he would step in with such velocity while throwing his left hand at such an insane speed, that when it caught people right would sting bad.

Kovalev vs Ward : when Kovalev dropped ward, we've seen Kovalev put ppl comatose many times. He hit with his money punch with ward running into it but couldn't put him dead asleep. It is because the timing of that kinetic linkage was off by a split second and got cut short, so it was probably maybe 50% of kov's true power when it actually landed.

Mike Tyson: Look at the hip rotation.. nothing else needs to be said, dude was as explosive as explosive gets with his legs and back everything.

GGG: Perfect technique, look where his arm is when he throw the hook, his back muscles are all fully tensed and need to return to normal position, this causes him to drive through his target every time with serious snap even tho he is more of a thudding puncher.

I don't think punching power is as mystical as a concept as people make it out to be, the whole punchers are born thing. I think it is obvious why certain punchers punch the way they do, and its more about being able to connect all energy building forces and stringing them together perfectly. From stepping in to gain momentum, to calf turning to smoothly bring the power up into the thigh, the thigh turning just a bit to transfer it to the waist, the waist twisting to bring it up into the back/shoulder, then the fist twisting to carry all of that and deliver it from the knuckle, and what distance the punch needs to land to most easily facilitate this transfer of energy. If you can master the timing of that, you will knock anybody spark out.

Alotta the basics are bull, like keeping hands glued at home. People that keep their hands glued at home and don't move their head because their coaches have convinced them its the safest way to box are my favorite people to box. I can bounce their head around with 8-10 punch combinations whenever I want, and they wonder why their defense ain't working even tho their boxercise coach told them thats the best way to do it.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Sorry but if you watch actual high level boxing you could see all your points being untrue.

Here Floyd is leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching, and he does it all the time.
Pacquiao same story.

Particularly funny to me is that there is this dumb idea that in boxing you always have to keep your elbows in and your punches need to have a straight line, basically from a stance like this

It looks silly and it is.
If you want to have some kind of punching power you need to flare those damn elbows.

incorrect alignment leaches power it's as simple as that. pacquiao's best punch is the overhand left. it's not a straight punch, so that changes the dynamics.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I would honestly say the number one most important thing with developing power in a punch, is to throw it in the way that feels most natural for the individual. All that basics "proper" way to turn the ankle and route to throw a punch nonsense is really just laziness. There's core pieces in that technique that are necessary for a good punch, but can be substituted for different movements that feel more comfortable to the individual.

It's all kinetic linking, that is the secret behind punching power. It's not heavy hands or pillow hands or any of that, look at any puncher and u will see where the power comes from.

Look at the first hook and watch my legs, as the shot lands you can see every muscle from my toes to hand flex at the exact same time. Connecting that and getting the timing and rhythm of ur body so all the muscles work together is what is more important.

Prinse Naseem Hamed? Same concept, would literally explode into punches. Pacman? same thing with his feet, he would step in with such velocity while throwing his left hand at such an insane speed, that when it caught people right would sting bad.

Kovalev vs Ward : when Kovalev dropped ward, we've seen Kovalev put ppl comatose many times. He hit with his money punch with ward running into it but couldn't put him dead asleep. It is because the timing of that kinetic linkage was off by a split second and got cut short, so it was probably maybe 50% of kov's true power when it actually landed.

Mike Tyson: Look at the hip rotation.. nothing else needs to be said, dude was as explosive as explosive gets with his legs and back everything.

GGG: Perfect technique, look where his arm is when he throw the hook, his back muscles are all fully tensed and need to return to normal position, this causes him to drive through his target every time with serious snap even tho he is more of a thudding puncher.

I don't think punching power is as mystical as a concept as people make it out to be, the whole punchers are born thing. I think it is obvious why certain punchers punch the way they do, and its more about being able to connect all energy building forces and stringing them together perfectly. From stepping in to gain momentum, to calf turning to smoothly bring the power up into the thigh, the thigh turning just a bit to transfer it to the waist, the waist twisting to bring it up into the back/shoulder, then the fist twisting to carry all of that and deliver it from the knuckle, and what distance the punch needs to land to most easily facilitate this transfer of energy. If you can master the timing of that, you will knock anybody spark out.

Alotta the basics are bull, like keeping hands glued at home. People that keep their hands glued at home and don't move their head because their coaches have convinced them its the safest way to box are my favorite people to box. I can bounce their head around with 8-10 punch combinations whenever I want, and they wonder why their defense ain't working even tho their boxercise coach told them thats the best way to do it.

i agree completely.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Sorry but if you watch actual high level boxing you could see all your points being untrue.

Here Floyd is leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching, and he does it all the time.
Pacquiao same story.

Particularly funny to me is that there is this dumb idea that in boxing you always have to keep your elbows in and your punches need to have a straight line, basically from a stance like this

It looks silly and it is.
If you want to have some kind of punching power you need to flare those damn elbows.

that picture of the "correct" stance you posted is hilarious that bloke can't box or punch, and you can tell just from the pictures.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I would honestly say the number one most important thing with developing power in a punch, is to throw it in the way that feels most natural for the individual. All that basics "proper" way to turn the ankle and route to throw a punch nonsense is really just laziness. There's core pieces in that technique that are necessary for a good punch, but can be substituted for different movements that feel more comfortable to the individual.

It's all kinetic linking, that is the secret behind punching power. It's not heavy hands or pillow hands or any of that, look at any puncher and u will see where the power comes from.

Look at the first hook and watch my legs, as the shot lands you can see every muscle from my toes to hand flex at the exact same time. Connecting that and getting the timing and rhythm of ur body so all the muscles work together is what is more important.

Prinse Naseem Hamed? Same concept, would literally explode into punches. Pacman? same thing with his feet, he would step in with such velocity while throwing his left hand at such an insane speed, that when it caught people right would sting bad.

Kovalev vs Ward : when Kovalev dropped ward, we've seen Kovalev put ppl comatose many times. He hit with his money punch with ward running into it but couldn't put him dead asleep. It is because the timing of that kinetic linkage was off by a split second and got cut short, so it was probably maybe 50% of kov's true power when it actually landed.

Mike Tyson: Look at the hip rotation.. nothing else needs to be said, dude was as explosive as explosive gets with his legs and back everything.

GGG: Perfect technique, look where his arm is when he throw the hook, his back muscles are all fully tensed and need to return to normal position, this causes him to drive through his target every time with serious snap even tho he is more of a thudding puncher.

I don't think punching power is as mystical as a concept as people make it out to be, the whole punchers are born thing. I think it is obvious why certain punchers punch the way they do, and its more about being able to connect all energy building forces and stringing them together perfectly. From stepping in to gain momentum, to calf turning to smoothly bring the power up into the thigh, the thigh turning just a bit to transfer it to the waist, the waist twisting to bring it up into the back/shoulder, then the fist twisting to carry all of that and deliver it from the knuckle, and what distance the punch needs to land to most easily facilitate this transfer of energy. If you can master the timing of that, you will knock anybody spark out.

Alotta the basics are bull, like keeping hands glued at home. People that keep their hands glued at home and don't move their head because their coaches have convinced them its the safest way to box are my favorite people to box. I can bounce their head around with 8-10 punch combinations whenever I want, and they wonder why their defense ain't working even tho their boxercise coach told them thats the best way to do it.

going a bit hard on the ol' doughboy aren't you. did he piss you off?

 

[eternaldarkness]

Sorry but if you watch actual high level boxing you could see all your points being untrue.

Here Floyd is leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching, and he does it all the time.
Pacquiao same story.

Particularly funny to me is that there is this dumb idea that in boxing you always have to keep your elbows in and your punches need to have a straight line, basically from a stance like this

It looks silly and it is.
If you want to have some kind of punching power you need to flare those damn elbows.

i wish i could post a clip to show you how wrong you are about having to flare the elbows to throw a hard punch. i think you need to watch a bit more joe louis, arguello or zarate.

 

[YoungCashMoney]

going a bit hard on the ol' doughboy aren't you. did he piss you off?

That's ironically one of the boxing coaches at the gym, I had stopped a dude the week before by accident (he quit on me) , and he started saying he wanted to box me next week and could drop me ect ect. I was 135 at the time and he was like 145. I told him "I'm going to land a right hand on you and ur going to get knocked out if ur gonna come at me with that kind of energy", he one of them tough dudes who was like "Ok lets see it! come on then, lets see it!"

.. he saw it.

 

[eternaldarkness]

That's ironically one of the boxing coaches at the gym, I had stopped a dude the week before by accident (he quit on me) , and he started saying he wanted to box me next week and could drop me ect ect. I was 135 at the time and he was like 145. I told him "I'm going to land a right hand on you and ur going to get knocked out if ur gonna come at me with that kind of energy", he one of them tough dudes who was like "Ok lets see it! come on then, lets see it!"

.. he saw it.

he sounds... enthusiastic, good for him or maybe not. i hope his knowledge exceeds his abilities.

 

[YoungCashMoney]

he sounds... enthusiastic, good for him or maybe not. i hope his knowledge exceeds his abilities.

He honestly wasn't that bad, real awkward. He been working at that gym for like 4 years. At the beginning of the round (whole thing lasts like 1:40) I threw a right hand at his guard with a little bit of pop on it like 10 seconds in to let him know what time it is. I remember his eyes got wide and he said "Woo!" and after that he boxed me scared to death, it was just a matter of time. He asked me to show him and challenged me in the first place with that kind of sparring so I figured I may as well see this out. That right hand is the first clean shot I landed and it did the trick. I didn't think he'd be done though, figured the spar would continue but he hopped out and said I hit him in the back of the head and that's why his leg wobbled.

Back of the head eh? Whatever helps him sleep at night.

 

[eternaldarkness]

That's ironically one of the boxing coaches at the gym, I had stopped a dude the week before by accident (he quit on me) , and he started saying he wanted to box me next week and could drop me ect ect. I was 135 at the time and he was like 145. I told him "I'm going to land a right hand on you and ur going to get knocked out if ur gonna come at me with that kind of energy", he one of them tough dudes who was like "Ok lets see it! come on then, lets see it!"

.. he saw it.

it's interesting, i have boxed a lot longer than you (over half my life) but it has only been at low level. most of what i know i have taught myself. natural ability (self belief) and the fact that you have always sparred with real quality and had top coaching really shows. it just reminds me something i have always said, there are levels to this.

 

[eternaldarkness]

He honestly wasn't that bad, real awkward. He been working at that gym for like 4 years. At the beginning of the round (whole thing lasts like 1:40) I threw a right hand at his guard with a little bit of pop on it like 10 seconds in to let him know what time it is. I remember his eyes got wide and he said "Woo!" and after that he boxed me scared to death, it was just a matter of time. He asked me to show him and challenged me in the first place with that kind of sparring so I figured I may as well see this out. That right hand is the first clean shot I landed and it did the trick. I didn't think he'd be done though, figured the spar would continue but he hopped out and said I hit him in the back of the head and that's why his leg wobbled.

Back of the head eh? Whatever helps him sleep at night.

interesting you mention punching his guard. that is one of my favourite tricks. you can make them cautious of the power so they keep their hands at home and leave the body open. i then start throwing the old joe louis special. the jab roll under right body, left body, right to the head. once you land this bad boy a few times it back to the 1-2's and the right usually lands at will. (i had to learn a lot of tricks because i was deadly slow)

 

[spacetime]

1. leaning too far forward. if you lean too far past your centre of mass it disengages the weight of your lower body.
2. incorrect alignment. eg. flaring the elbow or shitty wrist posture/strength. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. if you don't have good alignment a large amount of power "leaks" at the joints.
3. insufficient weigh transferal. if your weight is over your left foot you cannot throw a hard right. it is as simple as that. the same goes for the left hook. that is where the pivot thing comes in. i don't really believe that though because if i have most of my weight on the back foot i still can't throw a decent left hook no matter how much i try to pivot the lead foot. the pivot is meant to facilitate the transferal of weight, but you still need to have the weight set on the same foot as the hand your punching with. about 100% of you weight if you want to punch at maximum power. you can nearly always tell which hand is stronger by what foot your opponent keeps their weight over.
4. reaching with punches. straight punches reach maximum acceleration about two thirds of the way through the motion, that is why you rotate the fist, it keeps the punch accelerating until the point of impact. damage is caused by the amount of time force is applied to an object. put simply the more you punch through a target the more damage it does.
one of the most important things to remember in boxing is a lot of punching technique is taught for defensive purposes rather than generating maximum force. that is why a lot of people are a bit confused by a guy like marciano, he breaks a lot of rules their coach has taught them because his main concern was power. that is why he punched so far through the target and didn't really bother bringing his punches straight back to guard. he is the dead opposite to mayweather who actually sacrifices power (follow through) in order to regain his guard. from what i have seen the only time floyd becomes hittable is when he starts really committing to his punches.

Yes because the hardest punchers in history were..... Sluggers...

 

[eternaldarkness]

Yes because the hardest punchers in history were..... Sluggers...

interesting...

 

[Bubblun]

i wish i could post a clip to show you how wrong you are about having to flare the elbows to throw a hard punch. i think you need to watch a bit more joe louis, arguello or zarate.

That Mayweather pic I posted shows Mayweather knocking Ortiz out.
Floyd was also a power punches early in his career, but you know that.

Here is Pacquaio leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching.

And here is Mayweather throwing the most perfect jab in the history of humanity



The elbow is flaring, and not a little bit, the forearm is basically parallel to the floor.

 

[eternaldarkness]

That Mayweather pic I posted shows Mayweather knocking Ortiz out.
Floyd was also a power punches early in his career, but you know that.

Here is Pacquaio leaning forward, flaring the elbow and reaching.

And here is Mayweather throwing the most perfect jab in the history of humanity



The elbow is flaring, and not a little bit, the forearm is basically parallel to the floor.

i didn't say you can't lean, i actually said leaning too far disengages the weight of the lower body. mayweather was never really a power puncher in boxing terms. probably for the very reasons you quoted, he tended to lean too far in and flared his elbows a bit. i also didn't say you can't flare your elbows, i actually said that excessive elbow flare or bad wrist alignment leak power.