Choy Li Fut VS Muay Thai

[pash123]

This is supposed to beat muay thai? You've got to be joking. This is just sped up tai chi or some shit

Edit: I take back what I said. This grandmaster has got the moves. I think if we works on his ground game, he could be golden.

 

[SpecjalBradley**]

I take back what I said. This grandmaster has got the moves. I think if we works on his ground game, he could be golden.

I agree hes amazing! Never seen anyone dance as well as him! All he needs to do is work on some breakdancing and his ground game will officialy be golden....







I will stick with my Muay Thai.

 

[Jukai]

But they all look like kickboxers. That NYsanda page has a lot of kickboxing & MMA but the techniques are not similar to CLF at all.
...
So the question is if these guys are really doing CLF or Sanda/sanshou/MMA?

Well, boxing today has changed radically from the bareknuckle boxing of the 1890s. Muay Thai has become more dynamic than its Muay Boran predecessors. Judo took a lot from Catch and vise versa after their battles in the 1920s. Even Machida and his ilk are bouncier and dodgier than the early 1900s flat-footed karatekas.

It is unclear WHEN BJJ is going to stop evolving.

Likewise, Kung Fu is going through the same evolution... people are taking the art and modernizing it. Stances are higher, punches go in combos and not in some rhythmic pattern, there is no ridiculously risky techniques like catching a fist with a hand that resembles a snake, or crouching like a crane and flipping someone... but when I watch some of those clips, I do see CLF. Looping punches, palm strikes, throws from the hip, wide uppercuts, dashing kicks etc. etc.

So yes, CLF in the 1880s and CLF now look mighty different. But that is the evolution of martial arts. That is why I'd never train in some place that says "LEARN THE KOGA STYLE SECRET DEATH TECHNIQUES OF THE 1400s" or "LEARN THE CHINESE FLYING DRAGON STYLE OF THE 1700s!" because, well, those arts are too old, were specialized for combat at the time, and don't serve as much of a purpose for self defense or ring combat today. If an art can modernize itself, then it's a good art.

Also, remember that Sanda/Sanshou isn't a fighting style... and I'm going to pretext this with the fact that I may be wrong (and have been wrong about Sanshou before on SHerodg) and I need someone to back me up on this... but Sanda is pretty much a sport that the Chinese government made so that styles of Kung Fu could compete with one another, and unify in a certain way.
Sanda is pretty much just the rule system that several styles of Kung Fu (and any martial art) have to follow to compete in Sanda-style tournaments.
However, you need to realize that there are very few pure 'Sanda' schools and that Sanda and traditional chinese martial arts go hand in hand.
So, the way I think of Sanda is that it is a base which resembles western boxing, and it is augmented by the techniques and the style of Kung Fu you are using. So you are learning Sanshou and Wushu at the same time and you blend them, or you learn Sanshou and CLF at the same time and you blend them, or you learn Sanshou and Hung Gar at the same time and you blend them.
This may change, but (and I'm expecting to be corrected) this is how it is right now.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

my arts lack ground fighting skills, and a certain amount of small joint manipulation, i get this fron boran and silat.
i admit muay thai has faults, but it gives amazing stand up, unmatched in my opinion.
but thats my opinion.
show me a clip and dont expect anything other then an honest answer, dont get sand in your vagina because i said the clf clips looked bad, if they looked good i will say so.
i have been to nathan rd park in hong kong, seen some impressive kung fu,
however those clf clips were bad, should i lie, would you not be better served hearing the truth.
we should all be open and honest here.

I read this whole thread in disbelief.
Since when does a muy thai fighter justify thai boxing to somebody defending kung fu ?

I wish Machida never won. There would be no justification for people defending their crappy TMAs.

Choy le fut LOL.
Being the less shitty kung fu doesn't make it legit. I did some clf
As a kung fu nerd kid when I was 13. It was utter garbage. Everything I watch on you tube about it makes me believe that it is an inferior style. So some clf dudes compete in sanda ? Tai chi guys could also compete in sanda for all I know. If they re good in sanda it means to me that they re not using Tai chi. Same for clf.

 

[devante]

Question is how many people are familiar enough with the art to be able pick up the specific tech that standout. Just as I mentioned some don't have a broad enough base of knowledge to comment. Ex many people think semmy schilt did muay Thai; when all he has ever done is karate, even when stated as such people still say the opp. It's that their knowing so much or not enough; ESP as it pertains to lesser known arts. Training in diff arts will impact how you express yourself in competition or when training a new art. Ex the guy I train with does muay Thai; but at times he will use wing chun to enter a clinch or work in a clinch, if your not familiar with that art you wouldn't recognize it, you might assume he is just doing muay Thai.

 

[Payak]

was not aware that i was justifying muay thai,
read with both eyes open

 

[mjw1]

Also with all these goofy forms there is developmental and application.....

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

So the clips provided show CLF exponents participating in Sanda/Sanshou/kickboxing competitions.

But they all look like kickboxers. That NYsanda page has a lot of kickboxing & MMA but the techniques are not similar to CLF at all.

And again thats the problem with your line of thinking it looks like kickboxing therefore it can't be kung fu. Since when are they supposed to fight like they came out of a jet li movie? Flowery moves are the product of the mao era performance wushu that then led to the the bastardization of Chinese martial arts.

I've seen many conversations on this matter from the coach of the gym on other forums and he says that the foot work, punches kicks combinations, fighting strategy etc,etc from clf and lama pai are all in his kickboxing curriculum he teaches. Given that he studied with one of the "living treasures" of kung fu i think i can take his word on it.

When i watch Machida, i can see the Shotokan karate in his stance, punching, and tactics.. etc.

Many people here have said his style doesnt resemble what karate "looks like" too.:wink:

 

[Payak]

in the end, there will be someone from all styles that can whip you, and then some one that can whip them from all styles.
unless we can beat every practitioner then we can not judge.
sometimes i do it, but its ignorant.

 

[Jukai]

I read this whole thread in disbelief.
Since when does a muy thai fighter justify thai boxing to somebody defending kung fu ?

I wish Machida never won. There would be no justification for people defending their crappy TMAs.

Choy le fut LOL.
Being the less shitty kung fu doesn't make it legit. I did some clf
As a kung fu nerd kid when I was 13. It was utter garbage. Everything I watch on you tube about it makes me believe that it is an inferior style. So some clf dudes compete in sanda ? Tai chi guys could also compete in sanda for all I know. If they re good in sanda it means to me that they re not using Tai chi. Same for clf.

Yeah, Machida is the only successful Karateka ever... Sigh....

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

^^^
Don't put words in my mouth. And don't even try to blend all karates together. Kyokushin, shidokan, sendokaikan are all great full contact styles.

Shotokan isn't and as such is also an inferior style. I don't care how many guys Lyoto Machida knocks out. People like you will keep on seeing a shotokan fighter being successful in a full contact context. Your choice. What I see is a very talented guy trained in boxing, wrestling and the usual components. This guys also happens to have an unconventional approach due to his shotokan approach which gives him an edge, fine. But he isn't a "shotokan fighter".

 

[Blue Streak]

Also, remember that Sanda/Sanshou isn't a fighting style... and I'm going to pretext this with the fact that I may be wrong (and have been wrong about Sanshou before on SHerodg) and I need someone to back me up on this... but Sanda is pretty much a sport that the Chinese government made so that styles of Kung Fu could compete with one another, and unify in a certain way.
Sanda is pretty much just the rule system that several styles of Kung Fu (and any martial art) have to follow to compete in Sanda-style tournaments.
However, you need to realize that there are very few pure 'Sanda' schools and that Sanda and traditional chinese martial arts go hand in hand.
So, the way I think of Sanda is that it is a base which resembles western boxing, and it is augmented by the techniques and the style of Kung Fu you are using. So you are learning Sanshou and Wushu at the same time and you blend them, or you learn Sanshou and CLF at the same time and you blend them, or you learn Sanshou and Hung Gar at the same time and you blend them.
This may change, but (and I'm expecting to be corrected) this is how it is right now.

From what I know you are basically correct. Sanda is just a competition ruleset, like MMA or K-1 Kickboxing. They are not actual styles. Technically, anyone with any kind of background can compete under these rulesets (no guarantee for how good they will do, though).

Just like both karateka and MT fighters compete in kickboxing matches, any kind of Gong Fu fighter can compete in Sanda. Of course, when winning in competition becomes the focus different martial arts schools inevitably focus their training on catering to the ruleset of a particular competition format and people will start to say that they 'train' that format. Just like how many people now 'train' MMA, even though it is just supposed to be a competition ruleset and not an actual martial art.

 

[Blue Streak]

Shotokan isn't and as such is also an inferior style. I don't care how many guys Lyoto Machida knocks out. People like you will keep on seeing a shotokan fighter being successful in a full contact context. Your choice. What I see is a very talented guy trained in boxing, wrestling and the usual components. This guys also happens to have an unconventional approach due to his shotokan approach which gives him an edge, fine. But he isn't a "shotokan fighter".

I think Machida would disagree with you. Sure he cross-trains in a number of arts (you have to be familiar with the Big 4 in order to learn how to deal with them), but his base style and strongest technical influence is still Machida style Shotokan karate, with some Sumo thrown in for added TDD.

Machida doesn't stand like a boxer or MT fighter, he stands like a shotokan karateka. He strikes much more like the latter rather than the former, too.

Just because an art is traditionally associated with point fighting doesn't mean it can't be successful in a full contact setting. TKD is generally seen as a point fighting sport in which fighters don't really use their hands, but there are a number of posters on this forum who have reportedly done full contact sparring with TKD and the TKD guys did ok.

Machida has obviously worked out which parts of his shotokan training work in a full contact setting and which don't. His success is proof that styles which are traditionally point-sparring oriented can be adapted back to their full contact roots.

 

[Jukai]

^^^
Don't put words in my mouth. And don't even try to blend all karates together. Kyokushin, shidokan, sendokaikan are all great full contact styles.

Shotokan isn't and as such is also an inferior style. I don't care how many guys Lyoto Machida knocks out. People like you will keep on seeing a shotokan fighter being successful in a full contact context. Your choice. What I see is a very talented guy trained in boxing, wrestling and the usual components. This guys also happens to have an unconventional approach due to his shotokan approach which gives him an edge, fine. But he isn't a "shotokan fighter".

 

[Jukai]

I think Machida would disagree with you. Sure he cross-trains in a number of arts (you have to be familiar with the Big 4 in order to learn how to deal with them), but his base style and strongest technical influence is still Machida style Shotokan karate, with some Sumo thrown in for added TDD.

Machida doesn't stand like a boxer or MT fighter, he stands like a shotokan karateka. He strikes much more like the latter rather than the former, too.

One very uncomfortable question to ask is: is there anyone in the UFC who looks more like a traditional boxer or a traditional MT guy than Lyoto looks like a Shotokan fighter. Good luck thinking of the answer.

 

[mjw1]

Yeah, Machida is the only successful Karateka ever... Sigh....

Lately yes but people like bill wallace and benny the jet were stomping people with karate so it can very well work.....

 

[devante]

Lately yes but people like bill wallace and benny the jet were stomping people with karate so it can very well work.....

in mma you have machida-fmr ufc lhw champion--semmy schilt a karate practitioner who fought in pride/ufc/k1--ryan jimmo current mfc champion are some of the bigger proponents in mma. Not to mention katsunori kikuno (kyokushin)

these are the guys who have the obvious karate "look" and approach; but others who you could see the karate influence in gsp-guy mezger-chuck liddel (kenpo-koei kan). Rory markam and bas rutten are two kyokushin blackbelts, who have cited their full contact karate experience as major building blocks in mma; an of cousre you have shonie carter who has an extensive karate b/g having competed in numerous full contact karate competitions and championships.

 

[Jukai]

in mma you have machida-fmr ufc lhw champion--semmy schilt a karate practitioner who fought in pride/ufc/k1--ryan jimmo current mfc champion are some of the bigger proponents in mma. Not to mention katsunori kikuno (kyokushin)

these are the guys who have the obvious karate "look" and approach; but others who you could see the karate influence in gsp-guy mezger-chuck liddel (kenpo-koei kan). Rory markam and bas rutten are two kyokushin blackbelts, who have cited their full contact karate experience as major building blocks in mma; an of cousre you have shonie carter who has an extensive karate b/g having competed in numerous full contact karate competitions and championships.

Victor Belfort says the majority of his fighting right now is a combination of Shotokan and Boxing. What I don't get is, people fully accept that to use Muay Thai, Kickboxing or Boxing in MMA, you have to alter it quite a bit and the product in the end looks different... but for Karate and other arts, if you alter it for MMA, then you hear "wow, so and so art isn't effective so they have to change it up. That tma/bullshido/mcdojo art sucks!"

The double standards are fascinating and aggravating.

 

[Jukai]

Guy Mezger was actually a Korean martial art though, similar to Karate but not quite. It was one of the pre-TKD Kwon arts, but I'm too lazy to look up what it exactly was.

 

[devante]

Victor Belfort says the majority of his fighting right now is a combination of Shotokan and Boxing. What I don't get is, people fully accept that to use Muay Thai, Kickboxing or Boxing in MMA, you have to alter it quite a bit and the product in the end looks different... but for Karate and other arts, if you alter it for MMA, then you hear "wow, so and so art isn't effective so they have to change it up. That tma/bullshido/mcdojo art sucks!"

The double standards are fascinating and aggravating.

to say the least, an the odd thing is i spend so much time defending karate-kung fu- tkd-etc; an im not even a practitioner, just someone who has spent time exchanging tech or sparring with guys who are and can fight.