Choque - The official thread

MitsuyoMaeda said:
Alves said that there were 5 sweeps prior in jiu jitsu prior to him leaving to Japan. After his training he helped develop multiple sweeps and guard attacks. He said there are now 50 sweeps in jiu jitsu and many can be link to him. He said there were interesting attacks from the guard that he built upon such as a high guard arm bar. Alves also claims to have brought the loop choke into jiu jitsu. Okano is the one who taught him. He also brought a lot of attacks from side control. He claims that Yamashita and Okano had a lot of attacks from side control.

Alves even taught in the Kodokan and remains the only BJJ rep to do so.

Other BJJ guys who trained with Okano are Joe Moriera and Edson Carvalho.
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I have a copy of a Japanese book with a DVD showcasing Alves and Fredson Paixao. It has a lot of techniques and it is a shame there isn't more footage of him demonstrating techniques.
 
MadSquabbles500 said:
LOLZ bumping this thread for the LULZ.

anyways did volume cuarto come out yet?

And so which dojo or Ryu did submission off your back first make an appearance in written history? Apparently from re-reading this thread, it was a guy named Oda, or Tenabe, that decided to start pulling guard to beat the Kodokan. But where did either of those two get their submissions off the back?
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I believe that they got it from European forms of wrestling. It's possible that they may have even gotten it from Catch Wrestling, since Catch first developed in the 1870s, and there were Japanese in the UK at that time learning about the west. We know that Kano incorporated aspects of European wrestling into Judo, so it stands to reason that Tenabe(sp?) probably did the same thing in order to counter Judo.
 
Kingbedlam said:
I believe that they got it from European forms of wrestling. It's possible that they may have even gotten it from Catch Wrestling, since Catch first developed in the 1870s, and there were Japanese in the UK at that time learning about the west. We know that Kano incorporated aspects of European wrestling into Judo, so it stands to reason that Tenabe(sp?) probably did the same thing in order to counter Judo.
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Some pages back, someone states that apparently catch gets its submissions from Judo.
 
Kingbedlam said:
I believe that they got it from European forms of wrestling. It's possible that they may have even gotten it from Catch Wrestling, since Catch first developed in the 1870s, and there were Japanese in the UK at that time learning about the west. We know that Kano incorporated aspects of European wrestling into Judo, so it stands to reason that Tenabe(sp?) probably did the same thing in order to counter Judo.
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I believe there was a consensus the guard came from Fusen ryu. They were ground work experts and in their matches with the Kodokan Judokas they would try to drag them to the ground and apply submission techniques. Not exactly sure if they had guard techniques or Judo had techniques fighting off the back.
 
spiderguarda said:
I believe there was a consensus the guard came from Fusen ryu. They were ground work experts and in their matches with the Kodokan Judokas they would try to drag them to the ground and apply submission techniques. Not exactly sure if they had guard techniques or Judo had techniques fighting off the back.
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A few pages back, and apparently Fusen Ryu is not more specialized in matwork than any other jujitsu ryus at around the same time.
 
Kingbedlam said:
I believe that they got it from European forms of wrestling. It's possible that they may have even gotten it from Catch Wrestling, since Catch first developed in the 1870s, and there were Japanese in the UK at that time learning about the west. We know that Kano incorporated aspects of European wrestling into Judo, so it stands to reason that Tenabe(sp?) probably did the same thing in order to counter Judo.
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Most of European wrestling styles where standup styles, focused on tripping or throwing the opponent. Even CACC - witch was in use alot earlier than 1870 - was mainly a standup-style at first, but then pinning took over. CACC guys used some painful holds to pin, or even to get a submission. But if one compares the pre-1920 manuals of jiu-jitsu/judo and CACC, its clear that JJ was much more focused on submission holds and CACC on pinning.

So where did the Japanese got their submissions from the back? I guess they just came up with the strategy and techniques when JJ started to became more sport/challenge-match orientated.
 
OKMS said:
So where did the Japanese got their submissions from the back? I guess they just came up with the strategy and techniques when JJ started to became more sport/challenge-match orientated.
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We'll never know with certainty. But all evidence points to it being something that Mataemon Tanabe and Yataro Handa came up with in Osaka, SPECIFiCALLY as a strategy to defeat the Kodokan fighters in challenge matches.
 
RTD1 said:
We'll never know with certainty. But all evidence points to it being something that Mataemon Tanabe and Yataro Handa came up with in Osaka, SPECIFiCALLY as a strategy to defeat the Kodokan fighters in challenge matches.
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Where did they come up with submissions from top?
 
MadSquabbles500 said:
Where did they come up with submissions from top?
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If you figure them out from the bottom, I guess you'll figure them out from the top too.

What I posted is really the best explanation out there. There's no significant groundfighting in either Kito Ryu or Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, the two predecessors styles Kano used to create Judo. Fusen Ryu is largely a red herring, it was incidental that Tanabe became the head of the style, and it too includes no significant groundfighting. Most sport grappling styles that have existed through history had rulesets that awarded wins for throws or pins, not submissions. This includes CACC, where, to the extent that submission holds existed, they were mainly used to turn someone over to then win by pin. We do know that Tanabe fought some Kodokan men and won with his groundfighting and that Kano later incorporated this into Judo. We know Tanabe trained in Osaka with Yataro Handa. We also know that a few years later, people who would go on to spread Judo/Jiu-Jitsu (with a particular emphasis on groundfighting) worldwide like Yukio Tani, Taro Miyake, and Sadakazu Uyenishi had trained with Handa. Everything points back to the Yataro Handa/Mataemon Tanabe nexus in Osaka in the 1880's. What inspired those two to this unique approach is probably lost to history.
 
RTD1 said:
If you figure them out from the bottom, I guess you'll figure them out from the top too.

What I posted is really the best explanation out there. There's no significant groundfighting in either Kito Ryu or Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, the two predecessors styles Kano used to create Judo. Fusen Ryu is largely a red herring, it was incidental that Tanabe became the head of the style, and it too includes no significant groundfighting. Most sport grappling styles that have existed through history had rulesets that awarded wins for throws or pins, not submissions. This includes CACC, where, to the extent that submission holds existed, they were mainly used to turn someone over to then win by pin. We do know that Tanabe fought some Kodokan men and won with his groundfighting and that Kano later incorporated this into Judo. We know Tanabe trained in Osaka with Yataro Handa. We also know that a few years later, people who would go on to spread Judo/Jiu-Jitsu (with a particular emphasis on groundfighting) worldwide like Yukio Tani, Taro Miyake, and Sadakazu Uyenishi had trained with Handa. Everything points back to the Yataro Handa/Mataemon Tanabe nexus in Osaka in the 1880's. What inspired those two to this unique approach is probably lost to history.
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Dang that just sucks. This Yataro Handa guy is the key to all of this. Did either of those two leave any journals with their families? Maybe their descendants have it somewheres in the attic.
 
MadSquabbles500 said:
Dang that just sucks. This Yataro Handa guy is the key to all of this. Did either of those two leave any journals with their families? Maybe their descendants have it somewheres in the attic.
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http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?37917-The-Handa-School-of-Jiujitsu-in-Osaka/page4

I doubt it but there was a discussion and it gets very messy if you read the discussion. These sort of posters read Japanese and practice some sort of old arts. They also mention BJJ.:)
 
Sutemi-waza such as uki-waza, tomoe nage, yoku-guruma etc., was popular in early judo and ne waza bottom spezialists did most probably grow out of "survival needs" after failed sarifice throws. Uniformed rules for judo/jiu-jitsu and much more randori created tons of new skills through collective matwork - you can see this in the development of BJJ as well - lots has developed over the last 20 years, that was unknown when Helio was in his prime.
 
2019 bump. Psyched for the Drysdale documentary to come out.
 
OKMS said:
CACC guys used some painful holds to pin, or even to get a submission. But if one compares the pre-1920 manuals of jiu-jitsu/judo and CACC, its clear that JJ was much more focused on submission holds and CACC on pinning.
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Instructional manuals were never exhaustive, lets remember. Photographs were expensive and making books in general was much more expensive. Neither the Japanese jujutsu or catch-wrestling manuals were anything like a complete survey of techniques.

That said, there were plenty of submissions and submission specialists in CACC before 1920. Evan Lewis was on record choking people and submitting them with leglocks. Tom Jenkins famously choked out Farmer Burns. There's plenty more but those famous instances. Some people credit Louis Talabar, middleweight champion from Chicago, with developing the modern variation of the toe-hold we most often associate with the term, but considering that accounts of matches have people injuring knees and legs not only by hyperextending them but specifically by twisting them, it seems possible it was in use before Talabar.

Also, given the popular of the rolling DWL/Kimura from standing in CACC, as well as the short-arm scissor, I don't see how it could be that nobody was doing submissions off the back. You'd have to presume that everyone was a good enough sport to let go of those holds once they were pinned, for one thing and for another, if you are practicing a DWL entry from standing or a short-arm scissor you are going to end up on your back at some point.

Look at the use of what is essentially half-guard and butterfly in early scholastic wrestling; you even see Kimura/DWL attempts off the back. Its only natural that some people are going to develop and use those sorts of techniques against someone who is trying to control you from the top position. Even more likely when submissions are on the table.
 
RTD1 said:
We'll never know with certainty. But all evidence points to it being something that Mataemon Tanabe and Yataro Handa came up with in Osaka, SPECIFiCALLY as a strategy to defeat the Kodokan fighters in challenge matches.
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I don't think it necessarily originated with Handa, though clearly he was some sort of force in newazza, considering SK Uyenishi, Yukio Tanki and Tanabe all have links to his Osaka dojo.
 
RTD1 said:
This includes CACC, where, to the extent that submission holds existed, they were mainly used to turn someone over to then win by pin.
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I have to strongly disagree. Submission holds were present. That is clear by the accounts of matches. Some of the public and apparently a number of journalists thought they were uncivilized and brutal, so there was controversy about their use. But they were there.
 
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