China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

[Islam Imamate]

Liberal democracy spreading to every corner of the world.

At this rate its looking like a future of liberal democracy serving an oligarchy and backed by a surveillance state.

Spoiler

Still better than China though

 

[Teppodama]

@TemujinKhan

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...inas-dangerous-dream-of-urban-control/553097/

The implementation of social credit has been piecemeal so far: partial, local, and experimental. And there have been some encouraging signs of popular resistance to imposed “sincerity.” In the coastal province of Zhejiang, The Wall Street Journal’s Jeremy Page and Eva Dou report that locals have rejected a digital tool intended to let them inform on neighbors, on the grounds that it reminds them of the Cultural Revolution–style denunciations that remain within the living memory of elders.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-sig...-using-apps-to-snitch-on-neighbors-1514566110

Mao Zedong once hailed Fengqiao in eastern China as a model for “mobilizing the masses” to galvanize Communist Party rule. Under President Xi Jinping, there is an app for that.

Launched in Zhejiang province last year, it offers citizens rewards for information as part of a new government effort to meld old-school totalitarian techniques with 21st century e-commerce, big data and digital surveillance.

Now, this highlights a few key things.

1. There is a digital tool for reporting fellow citizens. This is also referenced in the Wall St. J article this article references.

2. There are citizens that are understandably uncomfortable with the idea of such and it's likely they are remember, or are influenced by fellow citizens that remember, the Cultural Revolution and all that came with it in regards to informing on ones fellow citizens.

3. As governmental and social pressure increases with the ongoing development of this program, which isn't designated to reach its fuller super sayan form till 2020, resistance to such a program is likely to be eroded. That doesn't even factor in those communities that will simply have no issue with utilizing it. And once those elders that remember the CR are dead and gone and only citizens having grown up in this brave new future take their place in Chinese society?

 

[Islam Imamate]

China is not Communist. They are Communist in name only.

China is a Capitalistic Racial Nationalist government and society. They moved away from government owning the means of production to EthnoNationalism and hyper Capitalism.

They still do have socialist elements though. The state still owns firms in key industries of strategic importance like those related to defense and even in the firms where they have allowed private shareholders to take control they retain a minority stake.

But I do think you have a point, they're transitioning away from state ownership and today most of the economy is under private ownership

 

[Teppodama]

They still do have socialist elements though. The state still owns firms in key industries of strategic importance like those related to defense and even in the firms where they have allowed private shareholders to take control they retain a minority stake.

But I do think you have a point, they're transitioning away from state ownership and today most of the economy is under private ownership

Do you believe that the situation will remain so moving into the future with this social credit system? How likely is it of a possible expansion into business where contracts and or the simple ability to conduct commerce will be extended to a credit based system also under governmental control?

Technically, that would still allow for the illusion of ownership but with the business's future dealings held in governmental control on the condition of their "good" behavior. Not that such a system isn't already in place as I'm sure the Chinese government has no issue with draconian controls on what commerce is conducted within their borders.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Do you believe that the situation will remain so moving into the future with this social credit system? How likely is it of a possible expansion into business where contracts and or the simple ability to conduct commerce will be extended to a credit based system also under governmental control?

Technically, that would still allow for the illusion of ownership but with the business's future dealings held in governmental control on the condition of their "good" behavior. Not that such a system isn't already in place as I'm sure the Chinese government has no issue with draconian controls on what commerce is conducted within their borders.

I don't think they'll expand into controlling business this way, why would they? The whole project of China since the 80s is to transition to a market economy and they try to make their country as business friendly as possible and applying this to the business big wigs would scare off foreign businesses. Take the way they deal with corruption for example. If they uncover a bribery racket, they almost always only punish the party members and government officials receiving the bribes(sometimes with the death penalty) but not the private sector actors who bribed them.

Unfortunately, stuff like this is usually rolled out to control the masses at the bottom of the pyramid, not the guys making bank at the top.

 

[Black Helicopters]

TBH a social credit system sounds perfectly in line with the “but consequences” mentality of many posters.

“But consequences”?

 

[gatchaman]

Imagine if the US had a no-fly list.

 

[loyalyolayal]

Xi JinPings great leap backward.

Xi JinPing once mentioned their style of government could be a model other countries may follow as an alternative to western democracy.


@steve38 @loyalyolayal I wonder how long until we see these types of laws localy since the PDPLABAN party is officialy a partner or ally of the Communist Party of China and have already sent representatives to teach our politicians how to govern.

That's fuct up. Fuckt up in a way that their asking price would be higher. Everyone can be bought.

 

[Teppodama]

Imagine if the US had a no-fly list.

America only cares about you coming in, not about you leaving. Well, unless you're going to fight for Isis then we're particularly interested.

 

[Judge]

I just read a statistic that said something like 67% of airline captains have witnessed inter passenger violence aboard their aircraft. As much as I hate the idea of a social credit system, how long do you think it’ll be before airlines in the US just start imposing something similar on their own?

Ah finally, the Permanent Record is going to be a matter of fact. I wonder if burning the right books will build up your stamina bar.

 

[gatchaman]

America only cares about you coming in, not about you leaving. Well, unless you're going to fight for Isis then we're particularly interested.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases

The No Fly List is a list created and maintained by the United States federal government's Terrorist Screening Center (TSC) of people who are prohibited from boarding commercial aircraft for travel within, into, or out of the United States.

...

Walter F. Murphy, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton, reported that the following exchange took place at Newark on 1 March 2007, where he was denied a boarding pass "because I [Murphy] was on the Terrorist Watch list." The airline employee asked, "Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that." Replied Murphy, "I explained that I had not so marched but had, in September 2006, given a lecture at Princeton, televised and put on the web, highly critical of George Bush for his many violations of the constitution." To which the airline employee responded, "That'll do it."

...

In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases, with labels indicating that they were terror suspects. The protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed in the databases because of a surveillance operation that targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq War.

...

Abe Mashal, a 31-year-old Muslim and United States Marine Veteran, found himself on the No Fly List in April 2010 while attempting to board a plane out of Midway Airport. He was questioned by the TSA, FBI and Chicago Police at the airport and was told they had no clue why he was on the No Fly List. Once he arrived at home that day two other FBI agents came to his home and used a Do Not Fly question-and-answer sheet to question him. They informed him they had no idea why he was on the No Fly List. In June 2010 those same two FBI agents summoned Mashal to a local hotel and invited him to a private room. They told him that he was in no trouble and the reason he ended up on the No Fly List was because of possibly sending emails to an American imam they may have been monitoring. They then informed him that if he would go undercover at various local mosques, they could get him off the No Fly List immediately and he would be compensated for such actions. Mashal refused to answer any additional questions without a lawyer present and was told to leave the hotel. Mashal then contacted the ACLU and is now being represented in a class-action lawsuit filed against the TSA, FBI and DHS concerning the legality of the No Fly List and how people end up on it. Mashal feels as if he was blackmailed into becoming an informant by being placed on the No Fly List. Mashal has since appeared on ABC, NBC, PBS and Al Jazeera concerning his inclusion on the No Fly List. He has also written a book about his experience titled "No Spy No Fly."

 

[Teppodama]

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases

The No Fly List is a list created and maintained by the United States federal government's Terrorist Screening Center (TSC) of people who are prohibited from boarding commercial aircraft for travel within, into, or out of the United States.

...

Walter F. Murphy, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton, reported that the following exchange took place at Newark on 1 March 2007, where he was denied a boarding pass "because I [Murphy] was on the Terrorist Watch list." The airline employee asked, "Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that." Replied Murphy, "I explained that I had not so marched but had, in September 2006, given a lecture at Princeton, televised and put on the web, highly critical of George Bush for his many violations of the constitution." To which the airline employee responded, "That'll do it."

...

In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases, with labels indicating that they were terror suspects. The protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed in the databases because of a surveillance operation that targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq War.

...

Abe Mashal, a 31-year-old Muslim and United States Marine Veteran, found himself on the No Fly List in April 2010 while attempting to board a plane out of Midway Airport. He was questioned by the TSA, FBI and Chicago Police at the airport and was told they had no clue why he was on the No Fly List. Once he arrived at home that day two other FBI agents came to his home and used a Do Not Fly question-and-answer sheet to question him. They informed him they had no idea why he was on the No Fly List. In June 2010 those same two FBI agents summoned Mashal to a local hotel and invited him to a private room. They told him that he was in no trouble and the reason he ended up on the No Fly List was because of possibly sending emails to an American imam they may have been monitoring. They then informed him that if he would go undercover at various local mosques, they could get him off the No Fly List immediately and he would be compensated for such actions. Mashal refused to answer any additional questions without a lawyer present and was told to leave the hotel. Mashal then contacted the ACLU and is now being represented in a class-action lawsuit filed against the TSA, FBI and DHS concerning the legality of the No Fly List and how people end up on it. Mashal feels as if he was blackmailed into becoming an informant by being placed on the No Fly List. Mashal has since appeared on ABC, NBC, PBS and Al Jazeera concerning his inclusion on the No Fly List. He has also written a book about his experience titled "No Spy No Fly."

Well, how about that. That was wrong of them to put those people on a no-fly list, they shouldn't have done that.

 

[gatchaman]

Well, how about that. That was wrong of them to put those people on a no-fly list, they shouldn't have done that.

Well, how about that; you were full of shit when you posted this:

"America only cares about you coming in, not about you leaving. Well, unless you're going to fight for Isis then we're particularly interested."

 

[Teppodama]

Well, how about that; you were full of shit when you posted this:

"America only cares about you coming in, not about you leaving. Well, unless you're going to fight for Isis then we're particularly interested."

By and large, I still believe my comment to be correct. Outside of terrorism, the average citizen still isn't going to be put on a no-fly list due to general anti-social behavior, unpatriotic commentary or simple debt. Your examples simply prove that like any system, it can and will be abused by unscrupulous actors for things outside its intended purpose. That differs in scope and intent from the no-fly penalty of the social credit system being imposed by the Chinese.

 

[gatchaman]

By and large, I still believe my comment to be correct. Outside of terrorism, the average citizen still isn't going to be put on a no-fly list due to general anti-social behavior, unpatriotic commentary or simple debt. Your examples simply prove that like any system, it can and will be abused by unscrupulous actors for things outside its intended purpose. That differs in scope and intent from the no-fly penalty of the social credit system being imposed by the Chinese.

American authorities good. Chinese authorities bad. Four legs good. Two legs better.

 

[Teppodama]

American authorities good. Chinese authorities bad. Four legs good. Two legs better.

Some how I don't think we're going to agree on this subject. We can keep arguing it though if you want?

 

[Swoliosis]

And with how much westerners seem to hate Chinese tourists and people, you would think they would like the fact that the Chinese government is punishing bad behaviour of Chinese people in airports, hotels, trains, etc.

My thoughts exactly. I’ve heard from a lot of people how shitty Chinese tourists are. There are tons of videos online too.

 

[Bacco]

Great idea that will be applied very bad lol

 

[MadSquabbles500]

They shoud include leaving country on vacation on list of things people with bad social credit are barred from. And the Social credits must come from overseas by foreign tourism bureaus.

 

[Fugazy]

I just read a statistic that said something like 67% of airline captains have witnessed inter passenger violence aboard their aircraft. As much as I hate the idea of a social credit system, how long do you think it’ll be before airlines in the US just start imposing something similar on their own?

Never, it will be never.

Lame "stat" from a lame cuck.

Great attitude bitch.