Substantial proof of what? That I rarely saw police? That the immigration police treated me well? That in a country of 1.7 billion people, the bad things you read are rare events? That most people in Tibet go about their lives with little infringement?
Do you have proof that going to a bar in America isn't a fearful experience because of gun prevalence? Do you have proof that black people in America don't feel targeted by police? Do you have proof that the country doesn't smell dude to the sweat of all the obese people?
I'm not beibg facetious. These are all things I've had to address from Chinese people. I'm not sure what kind of proof I could provide other thab my own experiences. You don't have to believe me.
I don't care if you saw the police or not. I am talking about the fact that they can and DO throw people in prison for having the wrong opinion about the government. That they can get introuble if the snooping app in their electronics says they are being to religious or their opinion is to dissenting. The fact that you can disappear over there for having the wrong opinion, have no safety or freedom from government snooping is proof enough of their evil. Which is why I was always against the Patriot Act, and the massive increase in surveillance against the American people. IF you have no ability to openly criticize your own government you have no measure of freedom.
I'm sure the people of Tibet just ignore the abuses..
I got out to the Cameron Highlands, which were gorgeous. If most of the country used to be more like that, I can only imagine the shock. That also explains why KL feels less like a city than any city I've been to. I remember walking around at 3pm and not seeing another person out on the street. It was insane. Makes sense if they've had rapid, sudden growth, though. People are still living like it's a much smaller town.
Also, durian is fuggin gross, dude. It tastes exactly like it smells.
I don't care if you saw the police or not. I am talking about the fact that they can and DO throw people in prison for having the wrong opinion about the government. That they can get introuble if the snooping app in their electronics says they are being to religious or their opinion is to dissenting. The fact that you can disappear over there for having the wrong opinion, have no safety or freedom from government snooping is proof enough of their evil. Which is why I was always against the Patriot Act, and the massive increase in surveillance against the American people. IF you have no ability to openly criticize your own government you have no measure of freedom.
I'm sure the people of Tibet just ignore the abuses..
Twitter censors posts, too. So does Facebook. Freedom of speech is not a guaranteed freedom in China (or most of the world), so I don't really know what we can discuss there. Are you saying that every country should have freedom of speech? All governments everywhere have a right to censor things. I can agree that China is more blatant about theirs, but I wouldn't necessarily agree that they are more egregious.
I agree that political dissent is generally important. However, my point was that the vast majority of people in most environments don't care much about politics, and surely not enough to have any political dissent they are burning to Tweet about.
I'm not saying that all of China's policies are perfect. I'm saying that they've developed a system intelligently and that they've allowed for drawbacks that aren't so catastrophic or contentious that most middle class people will care.
The PRC isn't great by idealized Chinese standards.
You lived in an area of the country with far higher living standards than the mean. Guangzhou is one of only five 一線城市 (first-tier cities). I don't think you would have had the same opinions if you had lived in (not just visited) a third-tier city. Why do you think so many mainland Chinese people move their families to western countries as soon as they can afford to? Everything from infrastructure to food safety to public security to sanitation to air quality tends to be far below the western standard.
You can argue that China is rising and eventually these problems will be eliminated through economic growth and sound management. Maybe, but if so it's a long way off.
You can argue that the surveillance state doesn't offend the typical Chinese person the way it does a typical American. This I fully agree with. I have observed that most Chinese people are willing to put up with government intrusion into their lives in ways that would make the average westerner uncomfortable.
However, I believe it would be a mistake to think that this acceptance will necessarily continue long into the future. Most Chinese people are poor. They are focused on making money. After people acquire significant wealth, they tend to reflect on their society and offer criticisms of it. Related to this, I predict that the Great Firewall will be dismantled within 25 years.
I use Chinese social media daily and say whatever the fuck I want. You think the government cares? They have 1.7 billion people to police. Unless you're planning a revolution, they don't have time.
All governments everywhere have a right to censor things. I can agree that China is more blatant about theirs, but I wouldn't necessarily agree that they are more egregious.
The PRC isn't great by idealized Chinese standards.
You lived in an area of the country with far higher living standards than the mean. Guangzhou is one of only five 一線城市 (first-tier cities). I don't think you would have had the same opinions if you had lived in (not just visited) a third-tier city. Why do you think so many mainland Chinese people move their families to western countries as soon as they can afford to? Everything from infrastructure to food safety to public security to sanitation to air quality tends to be far below the western standard.
You can argue that China is rising and eventually these problems will be eliminated through economic growth and sound management. Maybe, but if so it's a long way off.
You can argue that the surveillance state doesn't offend the typical Chinese person the way it does a typical American. This I fully agree with. I have observed that most Chinese people are willing to put up with government intrusion into their lives in ways that would make the average westerner uncomfortable.
However, I believe it would be a mistake to think that this acceptance will necessarily continue long into the future. Most Chinese people are poor. They are focused on making money. After people acquire significant wealth, they tend to reflect on their society and offer criticisms of it. Related to this, I predict that the Great Firewall will be dismantled within 25 years.
I only lived in Guangzhou for a few weeks. I actually lived in Foshan, but Guangzhou is an easier reference point. Foshan is a third tier city and it was fine. Though it is very much connected to GZ, so it probably gets an economic boost over other third tier cities.
They do have to worry about being disappeared. They just know how to keep quiet and not say the wrong things. They have no ability to dissent or criticize their tyrant.
Well I made that comment to a different poster in a different context. He was talking about how the government actually treats people. I was just saying that the government isn't going around arresting people for using hastags on weibo.
I'm making a distinction between internet censorship and law enforcement.
They do have to worry about being disappeared. They just know how to keep quiet and not say the wrong things. They have no ability to dissent or criticize their tyrant.
I only lived in Guangzhou for a few weeks. I actually lived in Foshan, but Guangzhou is an easier reference point. Foshan is a third tier city and it was fine. Though it is very much connected to GZ, so it probably gets an economic boost over other third tier cities.
There have been many documented cases of Chinese people being locked up for social media postings.
Here is the case of a young man who was imprisoned and forced to work on a prison assembly line merely for posting articles on social media and owning a particular t-shirt.
Oh, interesting. When I first moved to Foshan, it was listed as third tier. It may have been upgraded.
But even within Foshan, or any city, there is variety of living condition. I don't want to pretend that I wasn't living in a relatively nice area (a large part of my point is that there are many Chinese who AREN'T living the stereotypival impoverished government drone life that many assume), but not everyone who lives in New York lives in Manhattan.
There have been many documented cases of Chinese people being locked up for social media postings.
Here is the case of a young man who was imprisoned and forced to work on a prison assembly line merely for posting articles on social media and owning a particular t-shirt.
I should have been clearer. Just because something has happens, doesn't mean that it is such a regular occurence that it impacts the activities of an average person on an average day. People in America get fined for littering. Teachers sleep with students. But these things don't impact daily life.
Most people, in general, aren't political. Of the people who are interested in discussing politics, many do it privately, not publically. I don't discuss politics on my personal Twitter account and it's not because Trump won't let me. If tomorrow Twitter banned all political speech, nothing would change for a very large amount of people.
Oh, interesting. When I first moved to Foshan, it was listed as third tier. It may have been upgraded.
But even within Foshan, or any city, there is variety of living condition. I don't want to pretend that I wasn't living in a relatively nice area (a large part of my point is that there are many Chinese who AREN'T living the stereotypival impoverished government drone life that many assume), but not everyone who lives in New York lives in Manhattan.
I think most people understand that China has massive wealth inequality and therefore a massive discrepancy in lifestyles between rich and poor. Many of the richest people in the world are Chinese. That's common knowledge in the West. But again, why do most of these rich people send their kids to the West for schooling? Why do many of them move to the West?
As for conditions in China: sure, one could camp out in the 金橋 area of Shanghai for a year and be convinced that China is a first-world nation. One could also take a government-led tour of Pyongyang and be convinced that NK is a great place to live.
The point is that China has been suppressing human rights and environmental protection in the name of economic development for 40 years. The growing surveillance state is just another step in that direction.
I should have been clearer. Just because something has happens, doesn't mean that it is such a regular occurence that it impacts the activities of an average person on an average day. People in America get fined for littering. Teachers sleep with students. But these things don't impact daily life.
Most people, in general, aren't political. Of the people who are interested in discussing politics, many do it privately, not publically. I don't discuss politics on my personal Twitter account and it's not because Trump won't let me. If tomorrow Twitter banned all political speech, nothing would change for a very large amount of people.
Most people aren't interested in railing against particular political parties/figures as sport. However, in China, complaining about anything "sensitive" that might hurt the image of the Party or the government can invoke censorship. I've seen censorship of social media posts complaining about air quality, for example.
I think most people understand that China has massive wealth inequality and therefore a massive discrepancy in lifestyles between rich and poor. Many of the richest people in the world are Chinese. That's common knowledge in the West. But again, why do most of these rich people send their kids to the West for schooling? Why do many of them move to the West?
As for conditions in China: sure, one could camp out in the 金橋 area of Shanghai for a year and be convinced that China is a first-world nation. One could also take a government-led tour of Pyongyang and be convinced that NK is a great place to live.
The point is that China has been suppressing human rights and environmental protection in the name of economic development for 40 years. The growing surveillance state is just another step in that direction.
You kinda sidestepped my point. I wasn't talking about wealth inequality. The average person in Foshan is neither impoverished nor wealthy. That's what I'm saying. Lots of Chinese people are in the middle.
The suppression of human rights is a related, but separate issue in the context of my positions in this thread. With regard to the same middle class that I'm talking about, they have a great amount of freedom on a daily basis that doesn't really involve government oversight. The average person doesn't have run ins with the police or government officials over social media postings.
Most people aren't interested in railing against particular political parties/figures as sport. However, in China, complaining about anything "sensitive" that might hurt the image of the Party or the government can invoke censorship. I've seen censorship of social media posts complaining about air quality, for example.
But my original point was that China has developed a rather intelligent system that has seen them develop faster than any country in modern history and that they have done it while maintaining the world's largest population of young, horny, unemployed males and a low violent crime rate.
They are playing a delicate game, and they've found a remarkable way to control their populace without overreaching in a way that leads to mass backlash. Your point perfectly illustrates this. Sometimes posts about air quality get censored. Who really cares? No one is going to go on a fuck da police rampage over that, especially when their overall standard of living is improving.
Violence/Genocide: Do not condone violence or genocide on a person or group of people. You are free to attack a person or groups ideas but you are crossing the line when calling for violence. This will be heavily enforced in threads with breaking news involving victims.
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