Catch Wrestling United.

[04jamell]

ken shamrock king of american catch wrestling

 

[Supereem]

ken shamrock king of american catch wrestling

You reckon?

 

[knoxpk]

You reckon?

I have my doubts. I always thought Frank was better, just as ONE example.

I have researched Ken a few times now and while he was dangerous back in the day he appeared to have very little formal training.

Here is why I say that: He did some HS wrestling but I cant find anywhere where he actually completed a full season. His senior year apparently he was a beast and was 20-0 or something before breaking his neck and ending his HS career. Not long after he entered pro wrestling where he learned how to work and obviously how to shoot with legit hooks.

Very soon after that he was in the UFC fighting Royce. I know in between he did some true shoots while in Japan BUT If I am remembering correctly he had 4, MAYBE 5 years of "training" before he fought Royce. What is that in BJJ terms? A purple belt? Unless he is BJ Penn that is a very small amount of training compared to the men he was fighting.

Granted he was a physical specimen but I dont think technically he had been around long enough to have seen everything.

Some blurbs from wiki include in 1988 he started wrestling training with Buzz Sawyer, I am not sure how much Hooking he learned there but lets just assume he trained FT with Buzz to be a hooker, which I doubt. It wasn't until 1990 that he went to Japan to wrestle, where most of the legit shoots were going on. Within 3 years, 1993 he was fighting Royce Gracie.

So IF he was getting actual combat training with Buzz Sawyer that means he had 5 years of training. I think it is MORE likely he was getting his REAL fight training starting in 1990 when he went to Japan. This short time learning real hooks combined with some natural wrestling talent made him appear far more skilled than what he may actually have been. He certainly did very well considering his short time of actually learning, but to call him the CACC king to me is off base.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

I have a wrestling question.

If I'm trying to sit out from underneath a front headlock, do I want to spin toward the over arm or the under? I've seen it done both ways.

Thoughts?

 

[KJGould]

Here ya go. Here's an example of sitting out towards the arm over your arm:

 

[Goat Meal]

I have my doubts. I always thought Frank was better, just as ONE example.

I have researched Ken a few times now and while he was dangerous back in the day he appeared to have very little formal training.

Here is why I say that: He did some HS wrestling but I cant find anywhere where he actually completed a full season. His senior year apparently he was a beast and was 20-0 or something before breaking his neck and ending his HS career. Not long after he entered pro wrestling where he learned how to work and obviously how to shoot with legit hooks.

Very soon after that he was in the UFC fighting Royce. I know in between he did some true shoots while in Japan BUT If I am remembering correctly he had 4, MAYBE 5 years of "training" before he fought Royce. What is that in BJJ terms? A purple belt? Unless he is BJ Penn that is a very small amount of training compared to the men he was fighting.

Granted he was a physical specimen but I dont think technically he had been around long enough to have seen everything.

Some blurbs from wiki include in 1988 he started wrestling training with Buzz Sawyer, I am not sure how much Hooking he learned there but lets just assume he trained FT with Buzz to be a hooker, which I doubt. It wasn't until 1990 that he went to Japan to wrestle, where most of the legit shoots were going on. Within 3 years, 1993 he was fighting Royce Gracie.

So IF he was getting actual combat training with Buzz Sawyer that means he had 5 years of training. I think it is MORE likely he was getting his REAL fight training starting in 1990 when he went to Japan. This short time learning real hooks combined with some natural wrestling talent made him appear far more skilled than what he may actually have been. He certainly did very well considering his short time of actually learning, but to call him the CACC king to me is off base.

I always thought Ken's grappling was overrated. That leg lock he dropped down for against Royce in their first fight was probably the worst technique I've ever seen out of anyone. Frank on the other hand is a stud.

 

[knoxpk]

I always thought Ken's grappling was overrated. That leg lock he dropped down for against Royce in their first fight was probably the worst technique I've ever seen out of anyone. Frank on the other hand is a stud.

I agree, he was the most dangerous fight for Royce strictly due to the fact that had he gameplanned for a sprawl and brawl affair he MAY have been equipped to accomplish that. On the ground I FEEL that he did not have the experience to really have a good shot at finishing Royce on the mat.

Obviously that proved to be the case.

 

[mrpopenfresh]

So I had my first class of CSW wednesday and this shit is pretty cool! Unfortunately it's only 3 times a week, including a mma oriented class. The anaerobic workout was something I wasn't ready for. Anyone have a good plyometric routine to help out?

 

[Wrathbeans]

just do it , when i went from muay thai to mma i was gassed for a week or two. you just go in their till you get used to it.

 

[EchoBoomer]

This is a great thread!!!

I need some help. I have been searching for days and I have yet to find any legit catch wrestling gyms other than CSW, Gokor, and supposedly New Breed, in the Los Angeles, CA area. I have used the search function and Google, but still haven't found anything.

Please help me out, I want to start as soon as possible. I live in the Downtown Area and I don't have a car, so commuting to CSW, is out of the question. If you guys know of a club in the downtown area, PLEASE let me know.

I appreciate your time,
- Rene

 

[KJGould]

Not sure about downtown, sorry. Sign up at our forums at Catch Wrestling United | The Web's best Catch Wrestling Blog. Probably. we have a Catch Classifieds section for those looking for catch training.

Btw,

Hapy Birthday Billy Robinson!

 

[Title Fight Productions]

If I am remembering correctly he had 4, MAYBE 5 years of "training" before he fought Royce. What is that in BJJ terms? A purple belt?

You arn't counting his wrestling training in high school? Where did he go to high school at? Because if he was 20-0 as a senior than he had more than " a little high school wrestling training", ya dig?:icon_neut

 

[Title Fight Productions]

I think it is MORE likely he was getting his REAL fight training starting in 1990 when he went to Japan. This short time learning real hooks combined with some natural wrestling talent made him appear far more skilled than what he may actually have been. He certainly did very well considering his short time of actually learning, but to call him the CACC king to me is off base.

You also make the mistake of thinking that he stopped training and progressing in CACC after the first fight with Royce. Ken fought in Pancrase thru 1996.

 

[knoxpk]

You arn't counting his wrestling training in high school? Where did he go to high school at? Because if he was 20-0 as a senior than he had more than " a little high school wrestling training", ya dig?:icon_neut

Well, to be fair we can find nothing about any of his wrestling accolades except the fact he was 20-0 his SR season until it got cut short. No titles of any sort which the lack of info is peculiar. Wouldn't you think if he wrestled well as a JR for instance they would have said something like "After a promising JR season finishing 3rd at state he started off 20-0 as a SR until the injury..." or blahblah?

The silence is deafening.

You also make the mistake of thinking that he stopped training and progressing in CACC after the first fight with Royce. Ken fought in Pancrase thru 1996.

I dont think that at all, but to call him the KING of CACC is a stretch.

 

[UFile]

The king of CACC is Masakatsu Funaki for our modern era.

If not then it's the Great Gama. No if's ands or buts.

If we're gonna go by accomplishments... Josh Barnett has beaten better opposition and has won grappling tournaments...

So Joshu Barnetto would be King of American Catch right?

 

[KJGould]

King of Catch of all time was probably John Pesek. King of Catch currently competing is probably Barnett but that comes from a low talent pool. Brandon Ruiz has a case but is a hybrid of BJJ blackbelt and has been using Catch wrestling the last few years. Funaki King of Japan as has been said though Sakuraba is close and has done more in MMA. Not sure who's currently carrying the mantle. Minowa is fun and all, and talented, but I feel he lacks in a lot of areas.

 

[UFile]

King of Catch of all time was probably John Pesek. King of Catch currently competing is probably Barnett but that comes from a low talent pool. Brandon Ruiz has a case but is a hybrid of BJJ blackbelt and has been using Catch wrestling the last few years. Funaki King of Japan as has been said though Sakuraba is close and has done more in MMA. Not sure who's currently carrying the mantle. Minowa is fun and all, and talented, but I feel he lacks in a lot of areas.

How do you figure John Pesek is better than Gama?

 

[KJGould]

Gama had a lot of size and strength on his side. Pesek was arguably better pound for pound.

Pesek was 70-0 after he won the world title against Wladek Zybsyzko who had a claim to the world title of the then late Frank Gotch (Ed Lewis and Joe Stecher also laid claim to the title and the 3 wrestled each other several times with varying success). Zybsyzko was also a Greco-Roman champion and had a 35lbs weight advantage on Pesek.

Pesek beat Zybsyzko in the first 2 out of a best of 3 falls match. 3 weeks prior to this world title match, Pesek beat the US Army Champion Corporal Chris Sorenson also in the first 2 in a best of 3 falls match. The first fall took 64 minutes to win.

Ed Lewis (also claiming to be world champion, along with Stecher) and Billy Sandow decided to hire Pesek as a 'policeman' to basically beat anyone seen as a threat to Lewis. This means Lewis who many still think is one of the greatest of all time, feared he would lose to certain people and that he wanted Pesek to wrestle and defeat them instead. Some of these threats included Jack Taylor (Canada), Charlie Hansen, Olympic Champion Nat Pendleton and Armas Laitenen of Finland and Pesek beat them all so they didn't get to wrestle Lewis for his title.

Lewis had been upset in a match by Stanislaus Zybyszko, and Zybyszko was meant to drop the title to Wayne Munn a famous football player with no actual wrestling. The match was meant to be a work promoted by Lewis, but Zybyszko was secretly working for rival promoter (and other world champion) Joe Stecher. Zybyszko decided the match would be real and destroyed Munn obviously. Zybyszko was well past his prime and lost legitimately to Stecher a bit later. Pesek had parted company with Lewis and Sandow.

So at this time Pesek was still undefeated and had one world title, Stecher had two titles - the one he claimed and the one he won off Zybyszko (who won it off Lewis).

Pesek would wrestle Stecher in a war. Pesek won the first fall by pin, Stecher won the second by pin controversially as some claimed he used an illegal choke hold to help get the pin. In the final fall Stecher threw Pesek violently out of the wring and Pesek was injured and couldn't continue. It was Pesek's first legitimate loss (not counting the 'loss' in a 1 on 3 handicap where he claimed he could throw all his opponents out of the ring but one of them held on to the ropes for dear life and wouldn't be budged).

Stecher was the undisputed champ and Pesek wanted a rematch but had to get a couple of more wins under his belt. He would wrestle and beat Jack Taylor (who had a 40lbs weight advantage) and Nick Lutze, the Notre Dame wrestling champion Pesek had beaten a year or two earlier.

With these wins Pesek earned a rematch with Stecher at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angelese on October 6, 1926. Stecher was 214lbs, Pesek was 185lbs to 190lbs and had been regularly beating men who were 40-60lbs heavier.

It was thought this match was meant to be a work, the first fall by pin going to Stecher, the second by pin to Pesek. In the third fall Pesek repeatedly pinned Stecher but the referee refused to make the pinfall as Stecher was meant to be winning. Pesek trapped Stecher in a headscissors / double wrist lock combo.

The referee tried to claim Pesek was illegally choking Stecher but Pesek told Stecher "Joe you either give up or I'll break your arm" and forced the referee to award Pesek the match and Stecher was left crying in the ring.

In true pro wrestling fashion though, the referee never officially announced the decision and the decision ended up being overturned.

Pesek had contempt for the increasing number of works in pro wrestling and the business generally so he travelled to Australia and New Zealand and won 47 consecutive matches. Every title he had won he kept.

Pesek returned to America and was recognised as the Midwest Wrestling Alliance champion from 1931-1933 but was stripped of the title after he left to go to another promotion, Pesek twice won the NWA championship but was stripped for supposedly no showing matches although it was more likely promoters were afraid if he won their titles they'd never get them back.

So, Pesek beat two of the best of all time, was the linear world champion (despite being screwed over), lost only 1 fight and that was by injury, and beat guys who often outweighed him by 40-60lbs. It's a pretty solid argument.

 

[nakaiseye]

great history there KJ.

 

[UFile]

Pesek had lost. It doesn't matter. Gama was 5' fucking 7 inches tall. How is that size? Pesek was taller. Gama was just stout. Gama is the equivalent to Fedor Emelianenko.

Great Gama is P4P the best catch wrestler ever. It's like arguing comic books but it's facts man!

Also, I'm pretty sure that was cited off of wikipedia It doesn't matter. You're using it to support your argument. Even if it's a faulted one.