Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Bullitt68, Aug 20, 2013.
I bet it was @TeTe
Sure, blame it on the mod who babysits all of the behavioral disorder posters.
Josh I remember from the old Ultimate Grappling Mags back in the day they used to list places where one could get some cacc training. They listed a place named John Busto's Shootfighting here on Long island, ever heard of? Also whats the deal with Tony Nelson? I believe you have trained with him a lot. Is he coming to MMA? Curran Jacobs is another NCAA wrestler currently fighting MMA and flying the Catch flag.
I've no idea about John Busto's on LI. Maybe it's still there?
Tony is focused on work, family, and wrestling still. I would LOVE to bring him in to MMA or at least get him doing some submission wrestling stuff as he is incredibly talented. I think I could take him far. Thing is though, unless a person is really driven to want to do it, passionate to go for it, I find that it is truly hard to get most out of it for the athlete. MMA is just too hard on a person otherwise.
Curran and Tony are like comparing apples to tomatoes - both fruit, but nothing alike. Tony is a 4x All-American, 2x NCAA champion. Curran sin't even a 1x All-American. Curran has some skills and certainly seems passionate about catch wrestling but I wouldn't make that a valid comparison at all.
I am hosting another Catch Wrestling tournament February 18th in Orange County, CA.
Take a look below for details and even if you can't make it, please spread it around the 'ol social media circles.
You have been training Tony in some capacity for a while, no? I remember you mentioned something to that effect on a Podcast with you and Mark Kerr. I understand why Tony is still focused on wrestling, he still has a real shot at making the world team. He has freestyle wins over the current #1 HW Nick Gwiazdowski as well as all the other top domestic HWs in Zach Rey, Dom Bradley, etc. He faced the monster Turk HW (Olympic gold medalist) not too long ago and gave him hell. He is a monster for sure.
Also, you watch some of the older guys wrestle in their prime and its clear they have at least some knowledge of the more painful holds one can learn in freestyle and/or American folkstyle wrestling. I can recall guys like Dave Schultz, Mark Schultz, Terry Brands, and others executing some holds that would seem right at home in the cage or in a submission grappling tournament. Is this coincidence? Improvisation? Or is there more crossover than most people think between modern amateur wrestling and submission wrestling?
Nothing huge or new, but just for the newbs kinda wondering about CACC Basic Catch Wrestling History
So with no posts in this thread since April it appears that Catch Wrestling is dying and in danger of becoming extinct in the future.
I like different grappling styles and I like the history of different styles so I don't want it to become extinct. I have never trained catch since I have never lived near a catch school or anyone who has trained it but I like reading about it and learning about it. I have been wondering recently what can catch wrestling do to prevent itself from fading away in the future.
The main thing I think catch needs to do is hold more / any competitions and advertise them better. A vibrant competition scene would help promote and grow the sport. The two big issues though are that there are not many schools/teachers that are teaching catch wrestling and what would/should be the ruleset be for these competitions. Without enough catch wrestling practitioners, who is going to compete in these events? And without a unique enough ruleset what is going to differentiate catch wrestling competitions from some of the other No Gi grappling options already available like UWW Grappling, Sub Only, ADCC, Combat Wrestling etc?
I think catch wrestling is having an identity crisis and no one really knows what catch wrestling is and what makes it different from other more prominent grappling styles that have had better marketing in the past. Maybe not a lot separates catch from other grappling styles?
I think in this day and age where there are no "secret techniques" the only thing that separates grappling styles is the ruleset they compete under. All the techniques are the same or similar but the different grappling styles look different because the rules encourage / forbid certain things. Sambo looks different than Judo because of the rules. Freestyle wrestling looks different than folkstyle because of the rules. Sambo is different than BJJ because of the rules. The techniques are present for everyone to know but the rules shape how the matches look stylistically. So I guess the main thing catch wrestling needs to differentiate itself is a unique enough ruleset. The issue is does a unique enough ruleset even exist?
Sorry this post might not make sense to anyone else because it was more of a stream of consciousness ramble
It seems from the recent surge in tournament participation (relatively speaking) that catch is kinda on an upswing. A small one, but hey, that's something.
As far as rulesets, catch has those. There's the core ruleset:
Win by pin, or by submission. Much less restrictions on leg and spine submissions than typical BJJ. No obligation for the top person to stay engaged with the bottom person if they don't want to.
Variants: best of 3; no time limits or long time limits; also can win by flying fall (ippon-type throw landing in dominant position); can't pin someone if they're working a submission on you; chokes may be barred.
I think with the current tournaments out there trying to draw in competitors, we'll quickly have a couple pretty decent rulesets for people to choose from. I know that some of my MMA fighter students would happily compete in catch rules if given the opportunity.
I thought Catch would grow strong considering all the new competitions that were held this year. But then again there's no official federation or association so it all became shit again.
Snakepit USA wanted to get a unified title with a world championship. Problem is they only invited the gyms and affiliations they liked. They ignored the Catch Wrestling Alliance but the CWA champ Curran Jacobs managed to get a spot after making a lot of noise about it in social media. Curran won the whole tournament and became the first unified champion. Snakepit USA didn't like that so after two months they stripped Currans title. Now they have a new event in january for the new unified title.
The Snakepit USA's head coach Joel Bane is definately the wrong person to arrange world championships. The organisation were founded by Joel and John Potenza. However Joel have a serious drinking problem. After Joel beat up his wife John decided to split and start up his own organisation, Old School Grappling Association. This is Joels latest achievement;
Curran is scheduled to wrestle Ian Jones now in november to get the last catchwrestling title. It's funny how Curran became a champ when the CWA people he is coached by are amateurs. The headcoach Raul Ramirez is a bit of a modern day McDojo character. He claims to be a 5 time unbeaten Catch world champion. He had those matches in England and from what I understand all of his opponents were lightweights and Raul is a heavyweight. Also seems like 2 of his opponents weren't wrestlers. 1 was a kung fu guy and the other one was a boxer. Raul also posts funny technique videos on youtube. His latest video is about the japanese necktie, only problem is that the actual technique he's showing is a d'arce/brabo choke. Raul really have no idea about what he's doing. He spent less than 1 month training in England and is now a coach. His coach in England Roy Wood from Snakepit Wigan cut all the ties with CWA and Raul since Roy believed Raul is an amateur not able to teach catch.
I like catch wrestling but only a few of the active wrestlers are there for the sport. Lots of people just see the sport as a quick way to become a coach, open a business and get loads of cash. This is just the latest drama. I bet in 6 months there will be new shit going on.
Yeah it seems like a lot of the people involved in catch wrestling don't have the best credentials and aren't weeded out as easily as BJJ. I think the need to promote and expand catch doesn't allow for the best self policing.
Catch wrestling organizations need to recruit more former amateur wrestlers.
Chris Crossan from Legit Pro Wrestling is also the kind of person that smells Bullshido. I've been following him for a while and his credentials seems very hard to verify, not to mention they seem to change a lot through the years. On his website he used to claim to be a "world champion in mma", however there is/was no record or name of the organisations he supposedly fought for. On sherdog he only have 1 listed match which took place in 2008, a loss. This claim is now removed from his website but can still be found on his social media accounts.
He does have an old claim of being a brazilian jiu jitsu black belt and some gold medals from competitions. He claims to have a gold medal in the 2005 Gracie European Invitational however when I check the results on IBJJF website his name is not listed. Not to mention he writes it as IFBJJ. Never mentions what weight or belt he competed with. Up until recently there was no signs or information about who he recieved his black belt from. Wasn't until a few months earlier this year that he got a black belt from Erick Paulsson. He's been making the claim of being a black belt years before he got promoted by Paulsson.
I know he's legit with his Catchwrestling background but anything he claims to have done before that leaves a lot of question marks.
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