Canelo vs GGG rematch close

[PUO3]

I respect your opinion but disagree completely. There's no way Canelo dictated the fight because if that were the case he would have made the rounds more obvious cases for himself. The fact that the draw was so controversial and so highly disputed does negate the argument that he was dictating much. And, taken to the extreme, had he been dictating the terms of the bout, he would have debilitated or knocked out Golovkin (Fullmer vs Ray Robinson - I forget which number - for example was a careful set up for a KO blow; terms were dictated clearly there). In competitive fights, neither fighter is dictating the terms for as long as you said Canelo did.

Not sure how dictating pace or where its fought equates to a knockout.

How did Canelo not dictate where the fight was, or how it went? He did his thing making Golovkin miss badly and then posted on the ropes for breaks.

I dont believe that the person controlling where/how the fight goes means theyre the winner either. If thats what youre thinking.

 

[wilddeuces]

Not sure how dictating pace or where its fought equates to a knockout.

How did Canelo not dictate where the fight was, or how it went? He did his thing making Golovkin miss badly and then posted on the ropes for breaks.

I dont believe that the person controlling where/how the fight goes means theyre the winner either. If thats what youre thinking.

Well I look at who hit the other guy more for starters, and there was a substantial difference overall. So if we are looking at that, plus the fact that round by round Canelo wasn't clean sweeping all these rounds, it's hard to argue that he was dictating the terms. It's worth mentioning that this is why it's hard to win close rounds against Canelo and that he gets the benefit of the doubt for so many. He has good body language but that doesn't mean he's getting what he wants.

 

[nastyleft]

Well I look at who hit the other guy more for starters, and there was a substantial difference overall. So if we are looking at that, plus the fact that round by round Canelo wasn't clean sweeping all these rounds, it's hard to argue that he was dictating the terms. It's worth mentioning that this is why it's hard to win close rounds against Canelo and that he gets the benefit of the doubt for so many. He has good body language but that doesn't mean he's getting what he wants.

Hmmm, when Canelo boxed he controlled the fight. When Canelo brawled, he controlled the fight. The fight was Canelo's to lose and he damn near did. The only problem Saul had was when he lowered his output GGG recognized the opening to get to work and started taking back rounds. That could be a major problem with Canelo, we will see if that becomes a bad habit of his that he can't shake. I'm still not convinced he gassed rather than trying to take a breather for the long haul down the stretch. Every guy does it somewhere in the fight, even Mayweather did it. The difference is, how well you can disguise it. Floyd for example walks around, feints numerous times throws a pot shot and ties the opponent up and sits on him until the ref breaks it up. Rinse repeat until ready to engage legit next round or later, minimizing any onslaught the opponent can do while he's resting. Cinnamon still has to improve in that area. Everyone saw he was taking a break for 2-3 rounds and went to the ropes, including GGG.

 

[PUO3]

Well I look at who hit the other guy more for starters, and there was a substantial difference overall. So if we are looking at that, plus the fact that round by round Canelo wasn't clean sweeping all these rounds, it's hard to argue that he was dictating the terms. It's worth mentioning that this is why it's hard to win close rounds against Canelo and that he gets the benefit of the doubt for so many. He has good body language but that doesn't mean he's getting what he wants.

Golovkin took advantage of Canelo’s needing/wanting to take breaks. Thats where the output difference is made.

Golovkin didnt walk him down to the ropes. Canelo was pulling his foot off of the gas.

 

[wilddeuces]

Hmmm, when Canelo boxed he controlled the fight. When Canelo brawled, he controlled the fight. The fight was Canelo's to lose and he damn near did. The only problem Saul had was when he lowered his output GGG recognized the opening to get to work and started taking back rounds. That could be a major problem with Canelo, we will see if that becomes a bad habit of his that he can't shake. I'm still not convinced he gassed rather than trying to take a breather for the long haul down the stretch. Every guy does it somewhere in the fight, even Mayweather did it. The difference is, how well you can disguise it. Floyd for example walks around, feints numerous times throws a pot shot and ties the opponent up and sits on him until the ref breaks it up. Rinse repeat until ready to engage legit next round or later, minimizing any onslaught the opponent can do while he's resting. Cinnamon still has to improve in that area. Everyone saw he was taking a break for 2-3 rounds and went to the ropes, including GGG.

In truth, the fight was GGG's to lose according the betting odds, the online polls, and his record at MW. Although Canelo was the star, all the previous considerations suggest that it was Golovkin's fight to lose. GGG nearly lost because one judge was enamored with Canelo's moments of intensity but failed appraise the rounds in their entirety. These observations, and a failure to note the inactivity, shows why scoring can become disputable, because there is room left for the judge's interpretation (and frankly, I think we should trust their discretion, even though this first fight had scores that were surprising to me - it does more good than harm, I would say).

Still though, to go back to one of your previous assertions: saying Canelo controlled the fight when he boxed is a statement that I cannot agree with. GGG out-punched him with the jab (especially) and controlled the pace of the fight. When both men were trading power punches, GGG used his jab and pressure to hit Canelo and dictate the pace of the fight. I would say that Canelo had some good moments brawling and made a good case for himself during some rounds, but overall, he wasn't consistent and he lost the fight (in the eyes of many except Adelaide Byrd). Canelo taking large breaks because he exerts himself so much is his fault, yes, and Golovkin's for bringing relentless pressure. I agree he can disguise his breaks more, but he does what he needs to do so he can look as good as he does for parts of fights. Even disguising his breaks takes energy, so while he can work on that, I'm not sure he is willing to part with those burned calories. He gets tired faster. Mayweather, as you noted, disguised it well, but he never was at a "full burn" like Canelo always seems to be when he actively fights. Canelo's active moments have higher peaks in energy burn (and that will never change because of his physical makeup) and his passive moments have deeper valleys because he is in such desperate need for recovery. He'd probably make a good sprinter, but a terrible marathon runner; it's the nature of his body.

Lastly, Canelo went to the ropes willingly sometimes, and was maneuvered there on other occasions - I think we can compromise on that.

 

[wilddeuces]

Golovkin took advantage of Canelo’s needing/wanting to take breaks. Thats where the output difference is made.

Golovkin didnt walk him down to the ropes. Canelo was pulling his foot off of the gas.

Canelo's needed to take breaks. Make no mistake, a fighter doesn't want to take breaks and do nothing while the other guy develops a convincing case for himself. Not even the best want to, they have to. Canelo pissed away rounds because he fights in spurts. Are we agreeing here? Are we agreeing that Canelo loses rounds because he fights in spurts (because he has no other physical choice)? That Canelo lost rounds when Canelo didn't punch? Yup. That's boxing. And that's a huge problem with Canelo, and it's something that makes his fights close. Thing is, some fans/judges think that he wants the breaks and this perception gives him a break from the scoring and this, in turn, helps give him the benefit of the doubt for every close round. Come on, man. No, that's garbage. Rounds are weighed in their entirety, and if you only put forth a case for parts of rounds, you forsake losing the whole round. Canelo needs to take breaks. Let's not forget that GGG's pressure forced him to more naps than he has in previous fights too. That's ring control. Don't be so hard on the poor Kazakh. So, to be brief: when a fighter doesn't fight and the other guy hits him, he isn't, at that point in time, winning the round. We probably agree here.

Lastly, Canelo did walk himself to the ropes sometimes (I agree fully), and other times he was maneuvered there. I agree that both of those statements are true. Just because he walked himself there early in the fight, doesn't mean he wanted to be there later in the fight. That's letting a previous observation and premise dictate all your subsequent ones, which is just bad form. This is a very important consideration as it influences how one views a round when it is being scored.

 

[PUO3]

Canelo's needed to take breaks. Make no mistake, a fighter doesn't want to take breaks and do nothing while the other guy develops a convincing case for himself. Not even the best want to, they have to. Canelo pissed away rounds because he fights in spurts. Are we agreeing here? Are we agreeing that Canelo loses rounds because he fights in spurts (because he has no other physical choice)? That Canelo lost rounds when Canelo didn't punch? Yup. That's boxing. And that's a huge problem with Canelo, and it's something that makes his fights close. Thing is, some fans/judges think that he wants the breaks and this perception gives him a break from the scoring and this, in turn, helps give him the benefit of the doubt for every close round. Come on, man. No, that's garbage. Rounds are weighed in their entirety, and if you only put forth a case for parts of rounds, you forsake losing the whole round. Canelo needs to take breaks. Let's not forget that GGG's pressure forced him to more naps than he has in previous fights too. That's ring control. Don't be so hard on the poor Kazakh. So, to be brief: when a fighter doesn't fight and the other guy hits him, he isn't, at that point in time, winning the round. We probably agree here.

Lastly, Canelo did walk himself to the ropes sometimes (I agree fully), and other times he was maneuvered there. I agree that both of those statements are true. Just because he walked himself there early in the fight, doesn't mean he wanted to be there later in the fight. That's letting a previous observation and premise dictate all your subsequent ones, which is just bad form. This is a very important consideration as it influences how one views a round when it is being scored.

So again, Canelo dictated the fight...like I said all along.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

Hmmm, when Canelo boxed he controlled the fight. When Canelo brawled, he controlled the fight. The fight was Canelo's to lose and he damn near did. The only problem Saul had was when he lowered his output GGG recognized the opening to get to work and started taking back rounds. That could be a major problem with Canelo, we will see if that becomes a bad habit of his that he can't shake. I'm still not convinced he gassed rather than trying to take a breather for the long haul down the stretch. Every guy does it somewhere in the fight, even Mayweather did it. The difference is, how well you can disguise it. Floyd for example walks around, feints numerous times throws a pot shot and ties the opponent up and sits on him until the ref breaks it up. Rinse repeat until ready to engage legit next round or later, minimizing any onslaught the opponent can do while he's resting. Cinnamon still has to improve in that area. Everyone saw he was taking a break for 2-3 rounds and went to the ropes, including GGG.

Some fighters take a methodical tempo, and no sense of urgency can get them to push their tempo because they are in a groove, trained to win the 12 round fight, and taking their time.

Estrada fought that way vs Cuadras.

GGG was the one inflicted with a sense of urgency that night. Their faces told the story. Canelo seemed to amused with the game they were playing, and GGG looked like he was out of his element trying to cover up how bad he was losing the exchanges, which he was. Every time Canelo threw, he was winning, then he went back to pretty much not getting too badly touched at all on the ropes.

So I think we agree, I just don't understand GGG fans thinking their man just forced Canelo into the corner and pummeled him at will and got robbed by these corrupt judges... that's not what I saw.

 

[wilddeuces]

So again, Canelo dictated the fight...like I said all along.

Had to take breaks and lost rounds as a result is only dictating when you take breaks.

 

[PUO3]

Had to take breaks and lost rounds as a result is only dictating when you take breaks.

When he took his foot off is where Golovkin found his success.....

When Canelo was getting after it he was countering and making Golovkin miss.

 

[nastyleft]

Some fighters take a methodical tempo, and no sense of urgency can get them to push their tempo because they are in a groove, trained to win the 12 round fight, and taking their time.

Estrada fought that way vs Cuadras.

GGG was the one inflicted with a sense of urgency that night. Their faces told the story. Canelo seemed to amused with the game they were playing, and GGG looked like he was out of his element trying to cover up how bad he was losing the exchanges, which he was. Every time Canelo threw, he was winning, then he went back to pretty much not getting too badly touched at all on the ropes.

So I think we agree, I just don't understand GGG fans thinking their man just forced Canelo into the corner and pummeled him at will and got robbed by these corrupt judges... that's not what I saw.

Agreed, In quite a few ways, Canelo was clearly the superior all around guy. Lets just hope that foot off the gas thing he does isnt a career hindrance.

 

[wilddeuces]

When he took his foot off is where Golovkin found his success.....

When Canelo was getting after it he was countering and making Golovkin miss.

Anybody who burns tons of energy to "get after it" will make a case for themselves. Look at Maidana vs Mayweather 1. Maidana, when he threw 100 punches a round, was making a case for himself. When he took breaks because he had to, he lost the rounds. Same rule applies to Canelo. The smart fighter reads his opponents and takes what they give him. And, by the way, you make it sound like Canelo was clearly winning and boxing in some impeccable way. He wasn't. When Canelo couldn't get around the jab, he hung back and was losing, and when he was tired he hung back and was losing too. When they both went at it, the rounds were close, GGG was getting in his counters and was making Canelo miss as well. It wasn't some landslide when Canelo deigned to punch back at GGG. That's just bias.

 

[PUO3]

Anybody who burns tons of energy to "get after it" will make a case for themselves. Look at Maidana vs Mayweather 1. Maidana, when he threw 100 punches a round, was making a case for himself. When he took breaks because he had to, he lost the rounds. Same rule applies to Canelo. The smart fighter reads his opponents and takes what they give him. And, by the way, you make it sound like Canelo was clearly winning and boxing in some impeccable way. He wasn't. When Canelo couldn't get around the jab, he hung back and was losing, and when he was tired he hung back and was losing too. When they both went at it, the rounds were close, GGG was getting in his counters and was making Canelo miss as well. It wasn't some landslide when Canelo deigned to punch back at GGG. That's just bias.

Nah. Maidana was never getting the better of Mayweather or landing the better shots. Canelo was. Thats not bias, its just what happened. I never said it was some huge margin.

 

[wilddeuces]

Agreed, In quite a few ways, Canelo was clearly the superior all around guy. Lets just hope that foot off the gas thing he does isnt a career hindrance.

Nah. Maidana was never getting the better of Mayweather or landing the better shots. Canelo was. Thats not bias, its just what happened. I never said it was some huge margin.

Yeah, Maidan was getting rounds through workrate that couldn't be sustained, but I'm glad you agree that Canelo was barely winning when he was actually fighting (however sporadic that was).

 

[nastyleft]

Yeah, Maidan was getting rounds through workrate that couldn't be sustained, but I'm glad you agree that Canelo was barely winning when he was actually fighting (however sporadic that was).

Yeah I don't think either one of us said Canelo was dominating, just that he visibly looked the better fighter and was leading early but couldn't sustain, hence the draw.

 

[quincy k]

Yeah I don't think either one of us said Canelo was dominating, just that he visibly looked the better fighter and was leading early but couldn't sustain, hence the draw.

i never understood the theory that canelo won the first three rounds when not much was done by either fighter

 

[Seano]

Not sure how dictating pace or where its fought equates to a knockout.

How did Canelo not dictate where the fight was, or how it went? He did his thing making Golovkin miss badly and then posted on the ropes for breaks.

I dont believe that the person controlling where/how the fight goes means theyre the winner either. If thats what youre thinking.

Walking forward isn't dictating the pace. I wish people would abandon that idea. How is the boxer not at a scoring disadvantage if people just consider that to be the case?

Golovkin was the one struggling to get things done. Canelo was just boxing him up smooth. That was not a typical Golovkin fight at all. The ring general was Canelo, no doubt about it.

 

[PUO3]

Walking forward isn't dictating the pace. I wish people would abandon that idea. How is the boxer not at a scoring disadvantage if people just consider that to be the case?

Golovkin was the one struggling to get things done. Canelo was just boxing him up smooth. That was not a typical Golovkin fight at all. The ring general was Canelo, no doubt about it.

Thats my point. Golovkin didnt force him to the ropes, Canelo cruised when he wanted to and fought when he wanted to. He dictated the fight.

 

[wilddeuces]

Yeah I don't think either one of us said Canelo was dominating, just that he visibly looked the better fighter and was leading early but couldn't sustain, hence the draw.

Thats my point. Golovkin didnt force him to the ropes, Canelo cruised when he wanted to and fought when he wanted to. He dictated the fight.

At this point, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Neither side will be moved lol. I respect both of your opinions, but I didn't see Canelo looking visibly better, just more comfortable at times. I also saw Canelo moving to the ropes sometimes of his own volition, and others, he was maneuvered there (but it wasn't always, either way). I felt Golovkin won 8-4 or worst case 7-5, and both of you feel otherwise. Still, I can respect that you both sought to support your assertions like reasonable men.

Our perspectives contrast so we'll have to agree to disagree.

One thing we can all agree on is that the rematch should be fun to watch.

 

[wilddeuces]

Walking forward isn't dictating the pace. I wish people would abandon that idea. How is the boxer not at a scoring disadvantage if people just consider that to be the case?

Golovkin was the one struggling to get things done. Canelo was just boxing him up smooth. That was not a typical Golovkin fight at all. The ring general was Canelo, no doubt about it.

Well there was doubt, that's why it was a disputed draw, and most people thought GGG won. Still though, I get that you are a Canelo fan and that I am a GGG fan so we won't see eye-to-eye on this result. That's fine with me.

However, to clarify (if there needs to be any), I never reduced my belief that GGG was "dicatating the pace" by "walking forward." When he jabbed him and maneuvered him, that was him dictating things, but not when he was simply moving forward. If there was any confusion there, hopefully it is rectified now.