Canelo vacates the WBC belt!

No he never, he was nothing like his prime self at all.

You do realise that Mayweather used to be a combination puncher right, how many of them did you see in his last few fights? Hardly any is the answer, any time he tried to throw more than 3 punches he falls off balance after the left hook, he's not capable of lighting people up with combinations any more. His straight right hand was missing consistently against Berto and he was effectively winning fights with his jab. Just because he adapted very well to his loss in physical abilities doesn't mean he wasn't past his prime, it's just a testament to how good he is.

Manny can still do everything he's always been able to do, he hasn't had to turn into a potshotter like Floyd, his hands aren't busted, he is still one of the fastest in the sport. Your feet and hands dont slow down from taking punches, that happens to everyone, regardless of your defense. Floyd was handicapped later in his career but he adapted and used his experience to stay on top, he was nothing like the physical beast he used to be.

It's completely disingenuous to suggest that Floyd waited for Manny to get old given his own age and situation.

Floyd relied on his defensive ability to negate his opponents offence. What he lost in volume (he never was a high volume guy) he made up for in his punches landed vs his opponents. It didn't really affect his overall style that much. He's always been a potshotter since moving up to higher weights. That has more to do with him having to fight bigger men that he could no longer knock down, so he had to adjust and become more elusive i.e. throw less combos. The point is he is far less past his prime than Manny.

That is absolute crap about Manny. His volume has dropped dramatically over the five years that it took to make the PBF fight. That was his biggest advantage. 5 years before the PBF fight Manny put up an average of 103 punches per round against Clottey, prior to the PBF fight that was down to 56 against Algieri and 47 in the second Bradley match. That's a drop of half, pretty significant.
 
I'm saying you know more than to say that the only part of negotiations was aging. Even the biggest pacquiao fans on here weren't saying that.
Mostly it was to do with PBF's demands, so yes since it's coming from Floyds side then why wouldn't age be a factor?
 
Mostly it was to do with PBF's demands, so yes since it's coming from Floyds side then why wouldn't age be a factor?
I'm not rehashing an old argument with you.
 
Rubbish.

Floyd was older and a shell of himself. Just because he turned up prepared and sharp doesn't mean he wasn't fighting with a faded skillset.
Nah, Floyd isn't a shell of his former self. One of the things that set him apart is his dedication to training. The only thing is his injured hands made him have to take a less offensive approach. Not that Manny is so faded either. The only question is whether Manny's shoulder hampered him throwing punches. He lost mostly for not using enough lateral movement though so even with a good shoulder he'd still probably lose if he made those same mistakes.
 
Just because Floyd adapted very well to his loss in physical abilities doesn't mean he wasn't past his prime, it's just a testament to how good he is.

Yup.

Manny can still do everything he's always been able to do

Lol. Nope.

You are taking the Magical Manny approach, again. 37 year old Manny Pacquiao is not 27 year old Manny Pacquiao. He has less of literally everything. Not quite as fast, not quite as strong, not quite as fluid, not quite as much stamina.

He adapted, just like Floyd.
 
Yup.



Lol. Nope.

You are taking the Magical Manny approach, again. 37 year old Manny Pacquiao is not 27 year old Manny Pacquiao. He has less of literally everything. Not quite as fast, not quite as strong, not quite as fluid, not quite as much stamina.

He adapted, just like Floyd.

Yes, he has less of everything, but he hasn't lost any specific abilities. Read the post properly.

There's isn't a punch that Manny used to land that he can no longer land, he hasn't had to change his style completely or go from throwing combos to throwing sniper shots. It's completely different. Manny has degraded naturally in each area, but that's not a huge deal when he's still the among the very best in the world at each area. His speed may have dropped, but he's still one of the fastest boxers in the division. He can still throw combinations without falling off balance. Having to reinvent your self and change the type of punches you throw is more significant than losing a little bit of already elite attributes.

So yes, he can do everything he used to do. When Manny's straight left hand stops landing comeback to me.

Manny is a genetic freak, something you continually overlook when bringing up his age. You're talking about a guy that started off barely over 100lbs and went on to knock the shit out of 170b fighters.

Look at Manny v Bradley compared to Floyd v Berto. Pacquiao is closer to his prime self in that fight than Mayweather is to his, without a doubt. Forget who was more past it than who, the argument was that Floyd waited for Manny to get old, which given both of their situations is ridiculous.
 
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Floyd relied on his defensive ability to negate his opponents offence. What he lost in volume (he never was a high volume guy) he made up for in his punches landed vs his opponents. It didn't really affect his overall style that much. He's always been a potshotter since moving up to higher weights. That has more to do with him having to fight bigger men that he could no longer knock down, so he had to adjust and become more elusive i.e. throw less combos. The point is he is far less past his prime than Manny.

That is absolute crap about Manny. His volume has dropped dramatically over the five years that it took to make the PBF fight. That was his biggest advantage. 5 years before the PBF fight Manny put up an average of 103 punches per round against Clottey, prior to the PBF fight that was down to 56 against Algieri and 47 in the second Bradley match. That's a drop of half, pretty significant.

Your comparing the punching stats he put out against human statue Clottey, to Tim Bradley? If you can't see the fundamental flaws in your argument then I don't know what to say.

Give today's Manny that same version of Clottey and he does the same thing to him, with maybe a few less punches each round.

I don't really care to discuss how much either guy has degraded as it's impossible to quantify, but your overall point was complete bullshit because both guys were fading, and based on their last fights, it was Floyd who was further away from his prime. That's not waiting for someone to get old.
 
Yes, he has less of everything, but he hasn't lost any specific abilities. Read the post properly.

There's isn't a punch that Manny used to land that he can no longer land, he hasn't had to change his style completely or go from throwing combos to throwing sniper shots. It's completely different. Manny has degraded naturally in each area, but that's not a huge deal when he's still the among the very best in the world at each area. His speed may have dropped, but he's still one of the fastest boxers in the division. He can still throw combinations without falling off balance. Having to reinvent your self and change the type of punches you throw is more significant than losing a little bit of already elite attributes.

So yes, he can do everything he used to do. When Manny's straight left hand stops landing comeback to me.

Manny is a genetic freak, something you continually overlook when bringing up his age. You're talking about a guy that started off barely over 100lbs and went on to knock the shit out of 170b fighters.

Look at Manny v Bradley compared to Floyd v Berto. Pacquiao is closer to his prime self in that fight than Mayweather is to his, without a doubt. Forget who was more past it than who, the argument was that Floyd waited for Manny to get old, which given both of their situations is ridiculous.

I don't agree with that at all. You are not using a fair criteria to assess what they can and cannot do.

Floyd was always a defensive fighter, that is what he relied on. He never relied on being able to throw combinations or volume punching. Prime Mayweather's best performance was a 10 round fight against Corrales in which he only threw 414 punches. Floyd's adjustments were smooth and fit his style, he is not some super handicapped fighter in there.

Pacquiao relied on things he cannot do anymore, which is throw a thousand punches and overwhelm his opponents. He has had to adjust to a new style, in which he has a relatively low output and has short 1-2 punch bursts.

Pac threw 439 punches against Bradley in the 3rd fight. Pacquiao threw 838 against Barrera. That highlights the difference between prime Pacquiao and later Pacquiao. For you to look at the 3rd Bradley fight and say, "See, he can do what he always did," is kinda mind boggling to me. We've seen a declining Pacquiao ever since the Margarito fight.

Floyd did not wait for Pacquiao to get old exactly, and he did get old himself. But this nonsense about Manny drinking from the fountain of youth is so misleading and ridiculous.
 
I don't agree with that at all. You are not using a fair criteria to assess what they can and cannot do.

Floyd was always a defensive fighter, that is what he relied on. He never relied on being able to throw combinations or volume punching. Prime Mayweather's best performance was a 10 round fight against Corrales in which he only threw 414 punches. Floyd's adjustments were smooth and fit his style, he is not some super handicapped fighter in there.

Pacquiao relied on things he cannot do anymore, which is throw a thousand punches and overwhelm his opponents. He has had to adjust to a new style, in which he has a relatively low output and has short 1-2 punch bursts.

Pac threw 439 punches against Bradley in the 3rd fight. Pacquiao threw 838 against Barrera. That highlights the difference between prime Pacquiao and later Pacquiao. For you to look at the 3rd Bradley fight and say, "See, he can do what he always did," is kinda mind boggling to me. We've seen a declining Pacquiao ever since the Margarito fight.

Floyd did not wait for Pacquiao to get old exactly, and he did get old himself. But this nonsense about Manny drinking from the fountain of youth is so misleading and ridiculous.


Criteria is more than fair, Pac is a genetic freak and still physically superior to almost any fighter in the world. Floyd showed against Berto that he was physically further gone than Pacquiao, he just adjusts better and is a superior boxer.

You're completely misrepresenting what prime Floyd looked like, he wasn't a volume puncher but he was certainly a combination puncher. When you go from lighting guys up on the inside with lightning fast combinations, to effectively throwing a jab, occasional straight right hand and a clinch, you are not the same fighter. Floyd's hand injuries alone are more significant than any physical setback Pacquiao had.

I've already said Pacquiao throws less punches, so there's not much actually worth responding to here. Prime Pacquaio wasn't just a volume puncher, he was a counter puncher who would counter with combinations, which is exactly what he did in all of the Bradley fights. Not being able to throw as many punches as usual is not the same kind of physical set back as losing the ability to throw a combination - you can keep ignoring this point and talking about punch stats if you like, but it's 'mind boggling' to me that you can't see the difference. Pacquaio not being able to throw as many punches does not overrule the complete change in fighter that Floyd has become as a direct result of getting older.

Like I said, come back when Pac continually misses his straight left hand against a guy like Berto, that's when he's past it, or when he has to abandoned some of his best moves because he's too slow to pull them off.

No one is saying Manny hasn't lost a bit, you're just being overly defensive and making stuff up. I've said many times that Pacquiao has lost a bit in each area and isn't able to throw as many punches. Everything else is fair, he's still absolutely world class in all of the areas that he has always been world class in.
 
Criteria is more than fair, Pac is a genetic freak and still physically superior to almost any fighter in the world. Floyd showed against Berto that he was physically further gone than Pacquiao, he just adjusts better and is a superior boxer.

You're completely misrepresenting what prime Floyd looked like, he wasn't a volume puncher but he was certainly a combination puncher. When you go from lighting guys up on the inside with lightning fast combinations, to effectively throwing a jab, occasional straight right hand and a clinch, you are not the same fighter. Floyd's hand injuries alone are more significant than any physical setback Pacquiao had.

I've already said Pacquiao throws less punches, so there's not much actually worth responding to here. Prime Pacquaio wasn't just a volume puncher, he was a counter puncher who would counter with combinations, which is exactly what he did in all of the Bradley fights. Not being able to throw as many punches as usual is not the same kind of physical set back as losing the ability to throw a combination - you can keep ignoring this point and talking about punch stats if you like, but it's 'mind boggling' to me that you can't see the difference. Pacquaio not being able to throw as many punches does not overrule the complete change in fighter that Floyd has become as a direct result of getting older.

Like I said, come back when Pac continually misses his straight left hand against a guy like Berto, that's when he's past it, or when he has to abandoned some of his best moves because he's too slow to pull them off.

No one is saying Manny hasn't lost a bit, you're just being overly defensive and making stuff up. I've said many times that Pacquiao has lost a bit in each area and isn't able to throw as many punches. Everything else is fair, he's still absolutely world class in all of the areas that he has always been world class in.


No offence meant dude, your argument is inherently ridonkulous.

"This just in: come-forward fighter who normally scorns defence--& has been in dozens of wars with some real badasses--aged slower & more gracefully than technique-based cutie with half the fights, nowhere near as many hard fights & several years resting up out of the ring.

"At eleven, we'll show you how the same dude getting knocked unconscious actually made him more resistant to punishment..."
 
No offence meant dude, your argument is inherently ridonkulous.

"This just in: come-forward fighter who normally scorns defence--& has been in dozens of wars with some real badasses--aged slower & more gracefully than technique-based cutie with half the fights, nowhere near as many hard fights & several years resting up out of the ring.

"At eleven, we'll show you how the same dude getting knocked unconscious actually made him more resistant to punishment..."

You're forgetting the important part though. Pac is a freak, and Floyd is just an average Joe.
 
Here's the lead left hook that Canelo claims Floyd has had to completely abandon (or maaaaybe, he just didn't need it in some of his recent fights. you don't typically lead-left-hook guys like Maidana, Canelo, and Pac).

5539d2.gif
 
Floyd aged like everyone else, nothing more, nothing less. Same as Pac. He's not a shell, he's just a 39 year old version of himself. Just like Pac is a 37 year old version of himself.



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Here's the lead left hook that Canelo claims Floyd has had to completely abandon (or maaaaybe, he just didn't need it in some of his recent fights. you don't typically lead-left-hook guys like Maidana, Canelo, and Pac).

5539d2.gif

Fail.

Berto is literally stood in front of Floyd.

That's just a lead left hook, he barely steps in at all. Against Marquez he leaped about two feet in and stepped straight out. We can continue this when you know the difference between the two shots.
 
The substance with your post is that you post no truth, jump to conclusions and let your hate control your posts. The way I wrote it before was to give you a more philosophical view, to make you view your own fallacies to help you become less of a wannabe smart internet thug who feels attacked by some of the forum vets. Your posting can ruin the flow of the thread, a thread I check for some official news. You can actually measure my logic by this break down of Alvarez vs Golovkin http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/long-winded-analysis-of-ggg-vs-canelo.3193289/#post-114322623, your past post bash people and bash Alvarez and yet praise Golovkin, you're pretending you're doing nothing wrong. In my linked thread there was actually a dude who got banned there for being a douche. dont follow his same path.

You're trying too hard to come across as intelligent! You're rambling again... I asked what EXACTLY was illogical about my posts under the circumstances of the Golovkin/Canelo situation in the context of a boxing forum? Do tell..

Worry less about my posting style & more about the substance within it. Quit the threats too u big girls blouse. Peace.
 
Yes, he has less of everything, but he hasn't lost any specific abilities. Read the post properly.

There's isn't a punch that Manny used to land that he can no longer land, he hasn't had to change his style completely or go from throwing combos to throwing sniper shots. It's completely different. Manny has degraded naturally in each area, but that's not a huge deal when he's still the among the very best in the world at each area. His speed may have dropped, but he's still one of the fastest boxers in the division. He can still throw combinations without falling off balance. Having to reinvent your self and change the type of punches you throw is more significant than losing a little bit of already elite attributes.

So yes, he can do everything he used to do. When Manny's straight left hand stops landing comeback to me.

Manny is a genetic freak, something you continually overlook when bringing up his age. You're talking about a guy that started off barely over 100lbs and went on to knock the shit out of 170b fighters.

Look at Manny v Bradley compared to Floyd v Berto. Pacquiao is closer to his prime self in that fight than Mayweather is to his, without a doubt. Forget who was more past it than who, the argument was that Floyd waited for Manny to get old, which given both of their situations is ridiculous.
Well they're both past their prime so I wouldn't say it was an unfair fight. There's no denying though that Floyd wouldn't fight him in his prime. It was only after Manny got KO'd and slowed down that the fight got made. It's not unreasonable to say that's what Floyd was waiting for but only he knows for sure.
 
Fail.

Berto is literally stood in front of Floyd.

That's just a lead left hook, he barely steps in at all. Against Marquez he leaped about two feet in and stepped straight out. We can continue this when you know the difference between the two shots.

Lol. This is about as pathetic of an attempt as I have seen from you.

You said Floyd cannot throw a lead left. There one is, in his most recent fight.

You never said, "He is not as good at throwing it," that is actually what I said. I said he is not as good as everything, that's called aging. You said he literally cannot do shit at all.

You are falling apart here, move on.
 
Floyd aged like everyone else, nothing more, nothing less. Same as Pac. He's not a shell, he's just a 39 year old version of himself. Just like Pac is a 37 year old version of himself.



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Oooo Floyd landing punches, fantastic addition to the debate Nac.

You really can't even consider the idea that Floyd may be a bit further gone can you? You're talking about a guy who retired because his body was failing him 10 years ago. Just tell me who looks more physically past it in their last fights, I'll be interested to see your answer. I really don't understand how you find it impossible that the guy who is 2 years older and has a consistent history of physical issues could be further gone than Pacquaio because Pac throw less punches...it's a terrible argument.

You actually agree that Floyd din't wait for him to get hold, and that they had both degraded, which is what my argument was. I'm not even sure what you are arguing other than the semantics of who is slower than who and by what distance.

It just seems you are having trouble accepting that it was at best an even playing field. You're doing a similar thing with GGG, flat out refusing to consider any critiiscm.
 
Lol. This is about as pathetic of an attempt as I have seen from you.

You said Floyd cannot throw a lead left. There one is, in his most recent fight.

You never said, "He is not as good at throwing it," that is actually what I said. I said he is not as good as everything, that's called aging. You said he literally cannot do shit at all.

You are falling apart here, move on.

I said he no longer throws the same shot he knocked down Marquez with, you then posted a GIF of a different punch. Funnily enough, not all lead left hooks are the same. When you explode forward two feet to land a shot, and step back within the same movement, it requires a different kind of athleticism. Why don't you post the Marquez gif up if they are the same?
 
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