Canelo/GGG

[rmongler]

Really great fight, and though i might give an edge to Golovkin if pressed, i think this was probably the best way a first meeting of that quality could end.

One thing that popped into my mind while watching it though, is that i feel like Saul has a missing link.

Canelo is the sort of fighter who wins by being defensively responsible and picking shots at opportune times (ideally an opponent offbalancing or overextending himself). One thing that many of the greatest masters of defense had though to complete their systems of defense (which are really a specialty of american lineages), is a strong clinch game.

You look at Andre Ward for instance, and his ability with tieups was a telling factor in both his meetings with Kovalev. Every time Kovalev would look to crowd in and put pressure on Ward, Ward would smother him, defusing his attack, and sneaking his own shots in on the inside to tip the scales.

Canelo did not have this capacity however, and when GGG began turning up the heat and herding him into corners where he does his best work with stuttering combos at leisure, Canelo simply gave up ground and allowed him to do so, not having a good answer for it, putting himself into Golovkin's comfort zone and eating too many unanswered blows. His only real option to avoid being caught on the ropes was to press the attack himself and force a role reversal on Golovkin, something he did begin doing in the final three rounds.

 

[tehmvp]

Really great fight, and though i might give an edge to Golovkin if pressed, i think this was probably the best way a first meeting of that quality could end.

One thing that popped into my mind while watching it though, is that i feel like Saul has a missing link.

Canelo is the sort of fighter who wins by being defensively responsible and picking shots at opportune times (ideally an opponent offbalancing or overextending himself). One thing that many of the greatest masters of defense had though to complete their systems of defense (which are really a specialty of american lineages), is a strong clinch game.

You look at Andre Ward for instance, and his ability with tieups was a telling factor in both his meetings with Kovalev. Every time Kovalev would look to crowd in and put pressure on Ward, Ward would smother him, defusing his attack, and sneak his own shots in to tip the scales.

Canelo did not have this capacity however, and when GGG began turning up the heat and herding him into corners where he does his best work with stuttering combos, Canelo simply gave up ground and allowed him to do so, not having a good answer for it, putting himself into Golovkin's comfort zone and eating too many unanswered blows. His only real option to avoid being caught on the ropes was to press the attack himself and force a role reversal on Golovkin, something he did begin doing in the final three rounds.

The thing about the clinch game makes a lot of sense. That would have helped Canelo keep the fight more in the center of the ring where he had the advantage, while also giving him a chance to catch his breath a little.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Lee Wylie noticed that Caleno pretty much always puts himself on the ropes and tries to counter from there - so it could be that he doesn't have a stellar clinch game because it would interfere with his short range boxing but I dunno, I feel like he could learn quite a bit from Mayweather. To Canelo's credit he uses a similar method of defence at least on the surface, so it couldn't hurt to learn to tie up a little more.

That being said, Miguel Cotto has the tendency to make clinching a living hell for boxers, but Canelo was able to stop Cotto from throwing him on his head, or cross facing him or anything like that. So it's not like his clinch game is non-existent or anything.

 

[Frode Falch]

Long time since i have seen a so even matched boxing fight at that high level.

Great fight!

Was hoping for canelo to win. But the better man GGG won.

 

[Azam]

It was a great fight. I think Canelo did very well - he made GGG miss a lot of shots and I like the way he avoided those right hands while pivoting off away from the ropes constantly.

He landed a lot of clean shots as well. I think for sure the glaring weakness for Canelo was his inability to tie-up/clinch effectively. I don't think he has that kind of repertoire - the way someone like Mayweather, Ward or Klitschko for example tie-up/clinch.

But I think it's easier said than done against GGG. I feel like he made it very difficult for Canelo to attempt to tie-up/clinch because as he was stalking him down & cutting off space he wasn't really getting close enough for Canelo to tie-up. I think it's also very difficult to tie-up with someone like GGG when he's pressuring you - especially when he's cautious, hits hard and teeters on the edge of punching range while stalking - you're almost risking getting hit with something on your way in (especially when he's waiting on you) and then of course there is the mental pressure of having someone who hits that hard constantly in your face & cutting your avenues of escape (puts so much mental pressure on you that you forget about tying up or clinching when the opportunity is there) and just try to find space to avoid getting trapped. I think it's much easier to do of course when GGG's there to be tied up.

I think GGG's pressure game is extremely underrated - I'd go so far as to say I think he has the best pressure game in boxing. The way he stalked Canelo constantly around the ring for large portions of the fight, kept the output up and literally cut off space so quickly/effortlessly. I've rarely see someone cut off so much space in 1 or 2 steps.

I do feel like though that GGG's shot selection could have been much better though - I feel like he would have landed a lot more had he focused more on the body & switching levels more. You know the adage "kill the body and the head will die." I felt he was a bit too cautious at times.

I do feel though that GGG was robbed. It was a close fight but I think GGG edged it - and so did many others. That decision at the end was pretty disgusting and hearing Teddy Atlas going crazy about it was very understandable. I like how GGG dealt with it but I would have personally gone nuts.

I wouldn't be surprised if "someone" gave that female judge a little something on the side for that scoring and it's no mystery why - protecting the investment & cash cow.

I don't think there will be a rematch.

 

[Sano]

It was a great fight. I think Canelo did very well - he made GGG miss a lot of shots and I like the way he avoided those right hands while pivoting off away from the ropes constantly.

He landed a lot of clean shots as well. I think for sure the glaring weakness for Canelo was his inability to tie-up/clinch effectively. I don't think he has that kind of repertoire - the way someone like Mayweather, Ward or Klitschko for example tie-up/clinch.

But I think it's easier said than done against GGG. I feel like he made it very difficult for Canelo to attempt to tie-up/clinch because as he was stalking him down & cutting off space he wasn't really getting close enough for Canelo to tie-up. I think it's also very difficult to tie-up with someone like GGG when he's pressuring you - especially when he's cautious, hits hard and teeters on the edge of punching range while stalking - you're almost risking getting hit with something on your way in (especially when he's waiting on you) and then of course there is the mental pressure of having someone who hits that hard constantly in your face & cutting your avenues of escape (puts so much mental pressure on you that you forget about tying up or clinching when the opportunity is there) and just try to find space to avoid getting trapped. I think it's much easier to do of course when GGG's there to be tied up.

I think GGG's pressure game is extremely underrated - I'd go so far as to say I think he has the best pressure game in boxing. The way he stalked Canelo constantly around the ring for large portions of the fight, kept the output up and literally cut off space so quickly/effortlessly. I've rarely see someone cut off so much space in 1 or 2 steps.

I do feel like though that GGG's shot selection could have been much better though - I feel like he would have landed a lot more had he focused more on the body & switching levels more. You know the adage "kill the body and the head will die." I felt he was a bit too cautious at times.

I do feel though that GGG was robbed. It was a close fight but I think GGG edged it - and so did many others. That decision at the end was pretty disgusting and hearing Teddy Atlas going crazy about it was very understandable. I like how GGG dealt with it but I would have personally gone nuts.

I wouldn't be surprised if "someone" gave that female judge a little something on the side for that scoring and it's no mystery why - protecting the investment & cash cow.

I don't think there will be a rematch.

I think they have to rematch, right? I mean, Canelos handlers will probably not like it, but plus side is that GGG is on the downhill and getting older.

Canelo will never hear the end of it from the fans if he doesn't, and that gets to him. Not unless it's something he can't control that makes the rematch impossible.

 

[Ilk]

This was the best boxing match I have watched live. It had everything but KD or KO. Very technical, intense fighting. I love watching GGG and his style, he had an amazing performance and put the bigger man on his back foot again (although that is the style of Canelo). I gave it to GGG but I wanted to see a revange so I am not too disappointed. The most important is GGG finally got tested and it turned to a great match.

As a poster noted above, GGGs pressure fighting is hugely under rated. The guy does not let you breath and attacks non stop. Probably the best I have seen in this style.

 

[Sano]

This was the best boxing match I have watched live. It had everything but KD or KO. Very technical, intense fighting. I love watching GGG and his style, he had an amazing performance and put the bigger man on his back foot again (although that is the style of Canelo). I gave it to GGG but I wanted to see a revange so I am not too disappointed. The most important is GGG finally got tested and it turned to a great match.

As a poster noted above, GGGs pressure fighting is hugely under rated. The guy does not let you breath and attacks non stop. Probably the best I have seen in this style.

Duran, Chavez, Armstrong, Frazier, Marciano? GGG is up there, but there are others who have a much better resume than him.

The fight was good, but hardly a classic.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

I just finished watching it. I felt Canelo edged it out. he landed the better harder shots through out and made GGG miss a ton. I think if he would have put out a bit more offense the judges would have swayed it to his favor

 

[Ilk]

Duran, Chavez, Armstrong, Frazier, Marciano? GGG is up there, but there are others who have a much better resume than him.

The fight was good, but hardly a classic.

Well I have a heavy unpopular opinion that all the old time greatest are hugely over rated and obviously they would not be that good against nowadays athletes. Thus making GGG the better in pressure fighting than all these people. I am not willing to enter debate about it. Just shared the opinion leave it be.

 

[JayE]

Well I have a heavy unpopular opinion that all the old time greatest are hugely over rated and obviously they would not be that good against nowadays athletes. Thus making GGG the better in pressure fighting than all these people. I am not willing to enter debate about it. Just shared the opinion leave it be.

Golovkin can't even fight on the inside and you think he's a better pressure fighter than Roberto Duran?

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Just rewatched the fight and GGG was a lot more ineffective with his offense than originally thought. He was pressuring and landing consistent but very small jabs and straights the whole fight, but he was largely missing with his big punches and getting hit a lot harder and cleaner by Canelo.

If you even look at the damage on their face its pretty clear that Canelo barely got tagged like how GGG expected/wanted to hit him. I really thought GGG was trying to be more consistent and use small jabs to back Canelo on the ropes to open up some big punches, but in reality Canelo is very comfortable on the ropes eating small shots to avoid the huge ones. (You can even tell in the post fight interview with GGG than he was very disappointed with the lack of power shots he was able to land. He "wanted big drama show" Very unsatisfying for him I would assume.)

Like one poster said above I think its a shame how GGG head hunts and doesnt go to the body against a guy like Canelo. I just dont think GGG has the body work down in his arsenal. Would have definitely opened Canelo up for more damage when he had him against the ropes.

I was also very surprised how GGG was touted as the bigger puncher, but it was clearly Canelo who used the lower output and harder punching strategy.

If I were to score the fight as a whole based on damage I think its clear Canelo won, but if I were to score it using boxing scoring I would have went draw or 115-113 or 116-112 GGG.

btw fuck Byrd

 

[Sano]

Well I have a heavy unpopular opinion that all the old time greatest are hugely over rated and obviously they would not be that good against nowadays athletes. Thus making GGG the better in pressure fighting than all these people. I am not willing to enter debate about it. Just shared the opinion leave it be.

Sorry, but that's a pretty ignorant opinion.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I watched the fight again with my dad. It was closer than I thought initially as the camera work made some of Canelo's punches unclear. Honestly I have no idea who really won the fight now. I'm glad we will see a rematch.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Sorry, but that's a pretty ignorant opinion.

Yeah, I think that ignores the context of how the type of person that becomes a boxer has changed. At least in the US and UK I recall Sinister pointing out that now its more about athleticism and teaching them to be decent as opposed to someone just becoming a very good technical boxer.

 

[Sano]

Yeah, I think that ignores the context of how the type of person that becomes a boxer has changed. At least in the US and UK I recall Sinister pointing out that now its more about athleticism and teaching them to be decent as opposed to someone just becoming a very good technical boxer.

Plenty of athleticism as well in the history of boxing. GGG isn't a better athlete than fighters who came before him. The notion that everyone is superior in everything now is completely overstated, but we've had those debates so no need to go into that.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Plenty of athleticism as well in the history of boxing. GGG isn't a better athlete than fighters who came before him. The notion that everyone is superior in everything now is completely overstated, but we've had those debates so no need to go into that.

I definitely think athletes get better as time goes on. Like when Tyson was asked if he thinks he would have beat Klitschko if he were in his prime and he said that he wasn't sure because athletes get better as time goes on. Sports science and nutrition only gets better, but that being said I don't think Carl Froch is a better athlete than Sugar Ray Leonard, so you still have to count for individuals.

 

[Sano]

I definitely think athletes get better as time goes on. Like when Tyson was asked if he thinks he would have beat Klitschko if he were in his prime and he said that he wasn't sure because athletes get better as time goes on. Sports science and nutrition only gets better, but that being said I don't think Carl Froch is a better athlete than Sugar Ray Leonard, so you still have to count for individuals.

Wlademir would be a bad matchup for Tyson because of his style. He's hardly more athletic than Tyson was.

I get what you're saying, but I thnk in some areas it is true, albeit marginal, and in others not. Look at the track and field records from the olympics who hasn't been beaten since the 80's. Hammer throws, spear throw, long jump, high jump and more. Those records have stood for almost 40 years.

Carl Froch is not a better athlete no, and I'd be hard pressed to find a better athlete than Sugar Ray Leonard in boxing right now. Depending on how we define athleticism of course.

There has been very little improvement in human performance since the 70 and 80s and individuality matters more in something like boxing. Besides all the other factors like talent pool, knowledge, coaches, skill, so forth. Most of the improvements in other sports have been because of the technological revolution.

I do agree more people know more things, but that said there's a lot of misinformation out there as well. If you want to be truly elite, you go to the truly elite coaches and they teach much of the same they did many years ago.

 

[Azam]

I think they have to rematch, right? I mean, Canelos handlers will probably not like it, but plus side is that GGG is on the downhill and getting older.

Canelo will never hear the end of it from the fans if he doesn't, and that gets to him. Not unless it's something he can't control that makes the rematch impossible.

I'm not sure there will be a rematch - I think they'll wait for the outrage to die down after a few weeks then back to business as usual. If there is a rematch I feel like it will involve a GGG who is a year or 2 older than he is now - there won't be a clamour for an immediate rematch. If that does happen I think Canelo will beat him the second time round because Canelo is only getting better whereas GGG is near the end of his career.

If by some miracle there is an immediate rematch - I think GGG will take it. I feel like Canelo has a lot more to sort out compared to GGG. If I was GGG and there was an immediate rematch - I'd be working on the jab more, changing levels and not so much headhunting, more bodyshots and pressuring much more quickly.

What I think Canelo did an amazing job of was not being in a position to be hit with a solid shot. GGG didn't really land many powerful shots because Canelo simply wasn't there for those shots to land.

 

[Azam]

Just rewatched the fight and GGG was a lot more ineffective with his offense than originally thought. He was pressuring and landing consistent but very small jabs and straights the whole fight, but he was largely missing with his big punches and getting hit a lot harder and cleaner by Canelo.

If you even look at the damage on their face its pretty clear that Canelo barely got tagged like how GGG expected/wanted to hit him. I really thought GGG was trying to be more consistent and use small jabs to back Canelo on the ropes to open up some big punches, but in reality Canelo is very comfortable on the ropes eating small shots to avoid the huge ones. (You can even tell in the post fight interview with GGG than he was very disappointed with the lack of power shots he was able to land. He "wanted big drama show" Very unsatisfying for him I would assume.)

Like one poster said above I think its a shame how GGG head hunts and doesnt go to the body against a guy like Canelo. I just dont think GGG has the body work down in his arsenal. Would have definitely opened Canelo up for more damage when he had him against the ropes.

I was also very surprised how GGG was touted as the bigger puncher, but it was clearly Canelo who used the lower output and harder punching strategy.

If I were to score the fight as a whole based on damage I think its clear Canelo won, but if I were to score it using boxing scoring I would have went draw or 115-113 or 116-112 GGG.

btw fuck Byrd

GGG definitely wasn't as effective with his offence has he has been in past fights. Credit goes to Canelo for making it as difficult as possible for him.

I do think though that GGG landed with many consistent shots throughout the fight and especially when he was pressuring, they just didn't have a lot of umph in them because I feel like GGG was cautious about loading up on shots unless he got countered. I do think though he would have had a lot more success had he changed levels and peppered the body instead of headhunting - it made it very predictable for Canelo.

I do think Canelo landed the harder shots for sure although he got tagged with a few solid shots from GGG on occasion. I think though as the fight wore on he fought in spurts and whereas GGG was very consistent with his output. He simply outworked him whereas Canelo landed the cleaner shots but more sporadically - the difference was GGG's output just simply started accumulating which is what won him rounds & also contributed to Canelo's fatigue despite the successful spurts of Canelo. I think Canelo was a bit too fatigued to maintain the output GGG was putting on him and I don't think he was capable of fighting other than in spurts and credit to that goes to GGG.

I scored the fight 116 - 112 to GGG. Personally I don't really see how Canelo could have won that - I don't think it was a draw either.

Obviously corruption/politics going on behind the scenes. I'm definitely feeling what Teddy Atlas is saying and his thoughts on the fight mirror my own - I think the sea/log analogy he used pretty much summed up the fight: