Economy Canada's Insane "Equalization" Discussion: Ottawa Quietly Renewed Equalization Formula Until 2024

Most Quebecers are in denial as to the financial position of the Province. We can all see the numbers and Quebec is a welfare province but in Quebec they actually tell the citizens the opposite. They tell them that Quebec contributes more than it takes and if they separate they would be better off. They also tell the citizens that it is the rest of Canada that is responsible for the massive debt and if Quebec leaves they would not take their proportional part of the debt.

That is why after the last referendum the Federal Gov't created the Clarity Act which ensures if another Separation vote ever called that the truthful facts must be put to the citizen and not just political spin. so for instance it would have to be established what percentage of the debt the separating Province would be taking with them.
The Clarity Act is the Federal government making unilateral restrictions to a separation referendum, so that the Feds can declare a pro-separation vote invalid, just as the Spanish have done with Catalonia. Separation is not permissible in Soviet Canada and Spain.
 
The Clarity Act is the Federal government making unilateral restrictions to a separation referendum, so that the Feds can declare a pro-separation vote invalid, just as the Spanish have done with Catalonia. Separation is not permissible in Soviet Canada and Spain.
Citizens should not be lied to for something as important as Separation. And while there is an argument that 'tell them what they want to hear to get the vote you want' should not be te case in any election it is one thing to say 'I will cut your taxes' and not follow thru and quite another to say all of te lies they were saying to try and get people to vote for separation with the plan just break them like regular campaign promises after winning and the country is now separated.

Oops sorry new Quebecois in your own separate country. Remember how i promised that we would get none of the debt and therefore would be richer as a separate country... well that is not the case. We are separate, goal achieved, but because we had to take our share of the debt and our revenue no where near meets it, we are already broke like Greece. Oops. Maybe the rest of Canada will still send us equalization payments to help out. <DCrying>
 
Citizens should not be lied to for something as important as Separation. And while there is an argument that 'tell them what they want to hear to get the vote you want' should not be te case in any election it is one thing to say 'I will cut your taxes' and not follow thru and quite another to say all of te lies they were saying to try and get people to vote for separation with the plan just break them like regular campaign promises after winning and the country is now separated.

Oops sorry new Quebecois in your own separate country. Remember how i promised that we would get none of the debt and therefore would be richer as a separate country... well that is not the case. We are separate, goal achieved, but because we had to take our share of the debt and our revenue no where near meets it, we are already broke like Greece. Oops. Maybe the rest of Canada will still send us equalization payments to help out. <DCrying>
Why don't we apply the Clarity Act to federal elections and the lies told in them?
 
Why don't we apply the Clarity Act to federal elections and the lies told in them?
...And while there is an argument that 'tell them what they want to hear to get the vote you want' should not be te case in any election it is one thing to say 'I will cut your taxes' and not follow thru and quite another to say all of te lies they were saying to try and get people to vote for separation with the plan just break them like regular campaign promises after winning and the country is now separated.
 
...And while there is an argument that 'tell them what they want to hear to get the vote you want' should not be te case in any election it is one thing to say 'I will cut your taxes' and not follow thru and quite another to say all of te lies they were saying to try and get people to vote for separation with the plan just break them like regular campaign promises after winning and the country is now separated.
I just find it rich that you would like the feds to hold other governments to a standard that they have long abandoned if they every held to it at all.

I actually like Quebec, and would prefer it to stay in Canada, so that I don't need to cross a border to enter it. But when the feds try to bully with sabre rattling like the Clarity Act, I kind of want Quebekers to tell them to go jump in the lake.
 
I just find it rich that you would like the feds to hold other governments to a standard that they have long abandoned if they every held to it at all.

I actually like Quebec, and would prefer it to stay in Canada, so that I don't need to cross a border to enter it. But when the feds try to bully with sabre rattling like the Clarity Act, I kind of want Quebekers to tell them to go jump in the lake.
You seem to think things are mutually exclusive. I want politicians to be honest always.

But I can also see how it is PARTICULARLY damaging to lie to and trick a population into voting to separate and then after say 'sorry I lied' because unlike when politicians lie regularly you are still within the country and have the chance to make it right.

For the separatist vote in Quebec the separatists targeted university students hard flat out lying that because Quebec was not going to take the Federal debt they would be able to wipe out the student debt and provide all sorts of great jobs for students with no debt. amongst other huge lies.

Again you may want to pretend all politician lies are equal but simply telling everyone what they want to hear to get them to separate and then letting them deal with reality after with an 'Oops, you didn't really believe me did you' is just not acceptable for this type of referendum to me.
 
Two referendums, both voted no. Separation still exists as a dream here for some (mainly the older generation that lived through the quiet revolution), but it's pretty much widely acknowledged now that it'll never happen (especially after the last embarrassing run the PQ had as provincial government). The old guard may try to position the transfer payments as a guarantee QC won't leave the confederation, but it's an empty threat. Montreal, immigrants and Anglo population basically ensure that QC will stay part of the confederation.

The problem is that Quebec is addicted to the luxuries these transfer payments provide and not surprisingly, they don't want to give them up. Take the student protests 5 years ago for example. There was a very modest and reasonable proposal to raise tuition, which is by far the lowest in the country, probably the lowest in N. America, all tax payer subsidized. IIRC it was something like a $350 annual hike for the next 7 years which would still only barely bring it in line with the rest of Canada. Students were having none of it, so they protested and got what they wanted. Interesting to add that the only university in Quebec that didn't participate was McGill, which is also the only notable school here (Concordia being the distant second). So we can rest assured that all the Arts majors at the provincial shit schools still get to discover themselves through education, provided at basement budget rates, sponsored by the rest of Canada.

The same thing happened with the cops who were protesting budget cuts for years by wearing non-uniform cargo pants. To put that into perspective, it's very common here in Montreal to see a cop work the traffic lights. They are not directing traffic, they are literally pressing a button to change the traffic lights. All. Day. Long. I see it several times on my way to work, and I only have a 20 minute commute. I bring this up because it demonstrates the inefficiency and petulance of government workers here: Why in the fuck are we using someone who makes 70K/year to change fucking traffic lights? That's a $20 an hour job maximum. Better yet, why don't these fucking traffic lights just do what they're supposed to do? How hard is it to get that fixed???

Or take a look at where government offices are located. Why in the living fuck would you put a government office in the old port, right next to the canal, one of Montreal's most expensive areas? You're a government worker, put that shit in an industrial park somewhere. It's good enough for private businesses, it's good enough for public administrations.

I already brought up other deficiencies, like the complete lack of government services streamlining. Lost your health card? No problem, you can get a new one on-line. There'll be approximately 38 steps to follow, one of which will involve your old health care card. Yep, the one you need to replace...because you lost it. Makes sense? No lol, ofc not, but this is Quebec. Did you move here from another provinces and need to transfer your driver's license? Yea, you're gonna have to make an appointment at one of the two offices in Montreal (pop. 3.5 million) that are actually equipped to do this. It'll take 6 weeks to get the appointment, and you will need to bring a mountain of paperwork, for example, 6 months of original bills to prove that you lived in the very province your current driver's license is from. You do online billing? Don't think you can simply print out the bills, you need originals. The whole process literally takes at least 8 hours of running around, and most people don't even make it on the first try because they failed to satisfy one of the ridiculous bureaucratic requirements.

The rest of Canada needs to call the bluff, Quebec isn't going anywhere, and the provincial government structure needs a complete overhaul and needs to integrate with the federal government like the rest of the provinces (fun fact: During tax season I get to spend twice as much time doing taxes, because on top of my T4 I also have a Releve 1, Quebec's own version of the T4. Why? Because fuck me, that's why).


Somehow that sounds even worse than California. lmao
 
Get set for a traumatic fight over equalization
The chances of serious reform coming to the program seem slim at best. Quebec isn’t about to willingly give up such a rich supply of easy money. But that doesn’t mean the issue will go away.
premiers-meeting-201707181.jpg

Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall.

Brad Wall isn’t going quietly. The Saskatchewan Premier has just a few weeks left before he retires in favour of a less colourful figure. Yet, far from slipping off into the prairie sunset (which comes early this time of year), he’s still firing off tweets on one of his favourite topics: the absurdity of the federal equalization program.

“Quebec cuts income taxes, sends cheques to parents & balances their budget,” he wrote. Monday. “Next yr they get $11.7 BILLION in equalization, $650 MILLION more than last yr, as SK taxpayers pay in $580M, and get $0..while our finances hurt by stubborn low commodity prices. Something isn’t right.”



Appended was a map of the equalization breakdown, with big fat zeroes on the three western-most provinces, rising to the gargantuan $11.7 billion Quebec will receive in testament to its evidently incurable status as a “have-not”province.

It’s far from the first time Wall has beefed about equalization, which is hard-wired into Canada’s constitution and treated as one of the many absolute rights Canadians now deem theirs by birth. Lately he’s been echoed by Jason Kenney, opposition leader in next-door Alberta, who has threatened to hold a referendum on the program should he become premier, though what that might accomplish isn’t clear.

The workings of the program are often misconstrued. “Have” provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan don’t actually write up cheques and mail them off to Quebec and other equalization recipients. Ottawa sends the money based on a formula related to provincial prosperity. And Quebec isn’t the biggest recipient per capita (Price Edward Islanders get twice as much). But Quebec does soak up 60 per cent of the national total, and the notion that it’s a struggling province in need of help to keep up with the rest of the country is getting increasingly hard to swallow with each new pronouncement from Quebec Finance Minister Carlos Leitão about the wondrous economy the provincial government has wrought.

“The news is good,” Leitão proclaimed in unveiling a tax cut and other goodies in a pre-Christmas announcement. “If we are doing this now, it’s because we can do it now,” he said, claiming the sudden largesse has nothing to do with the approach of next year’s election.

Indeed. Compared to its long history of big spending and high taxes, Quebec is doing well. Very well, it must seem to other provinces struggling to make ends meet. University students in Quebec pay the lowest tuition in the country, thanks to heavy subsidies. Daycare costs are minimal: a report released Tuesday found the median cost of daycare in Quebec, at $2,196 a year, is a tenth what a Torontonian would have to pay, thanks to government supports.

Quebec has the cash to offer an array of benefits: in boosting funds for anti-poverty programs, it plans to introduce a guaranteed basic income for people deemed unable to work. Quebec surgeons and anesthesiologists have received $86.1 million over the past three years as a reward for showing up for work on time. While newspapers across the country are shutting down in the face of a changing market, Quebec will spend $36.4 million over five years to support print publications struggling to make the transition. And while Quebec families receive the same federal tax breaks as other Canadians for the cost of raising children, Leitão said he’ll kick in another $100 for every school-aged child. Just because he can.

It’s nice that Quebec is feeling flush, but it can’t help but rankle across the rest of the country, where $11 billion extra a year would solve a lot of problems. Quebec’s annual take almost exactly equals the interest costs Ontario spends on its debt, even as it continues to borrow heavily despite pretending to have a balanced budget. Wall’s perennial status as Canada’s most popular premier took a knock this year when he was forced to introduce an austerity budget that included higher taxes and some painful spending cuts. And Albertans can’t help but wonder how they can simultaneously count as the country’s fattest fat cats even as unemployment nudges eight per cent, office towers sit empty and the budget floats on a river of red ink.

The answer is in resources: the western provinces have resource wealth that makes them look well off even during hard times. Kenney’s referendum is aimed at having resources removed from the formula for calculating equalization. If he succeeds, it might not mean a cent of extra money for Alberta, but could mean less for Quebec and wipe the smile off its face.

The chances of serious reform coming to the program seem slim at best. This is Canada, after all; we can’t even build a pipeline without triggering a national trauma. Quebec isn’t about to willingly give up such a rich supply of easy money, and is entirely capable of boasting of its vibrant economy while simultaneously crying poor to Ottawa.

That doesn’t mean the issue will go away. Equalization may be baked into the national pie, but nothing says every piece has to stay the same size forever, especially if one province appears to be seriously gaining weight.

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/kelly-mcparland-get-set-for-a-traumatic-fight-over-equalization
 
i would vote yes in heartbeat to get the hell out of this fucked up country. This country is so divided it's disgusting.

Can't wait for another new tax to pay for the pipeline that Notley says Alberta will fund.


I'm pretty much here. I'm sick of my (Toronto and Ontario) taxes supporting pretty much the rest of your fucking bums.

We need to eliminate the equalization payment system, pay most of our taxes to province. The feds would be minimalistic influence at best, pay for the army, CBC, mail service, ensure some rights for every Canadian through SCOC etc.

The fuck do I care if Alberta wants a for-profit US style healthcare system of Quebec wants free daycare for everyone, so long as I'm not paying for it.
 
I'm pretty much here. I'm sick of my (Toronto and Ontario) taxes supporting pretty much the rest of your fucking bums.

We need to eliminate the equalization payment system, pay most of our taxes to province. The feds would be minimalistic influence at best, pay for the army, CBC, mail service, ensure some rights for every Canadian through SCOC etc.

The fuck do I care if Alberta wants a for-profit US style healthcare system of Quebec wants free daycare for everyone, so long as I'm not paying for it.
Fuck you Ontario!

but not the Blue Jays, I still love you.
 
I'm pretty much here. I'm sick of my (Toronto and Ontario) taxes supporting pretty much the rest of your fucking bums.

We need to eliminate the equalization payment system, pay most of our taxes to province. The feds would be minimalistic influence at best, pay for the army, CBC, mail service, ensure some rights for every Canadian through SCOC etc.

The fuck do I care if Alberta wants a for-profit US style healthcare system of Quebec wants free daycare for everyone, so long as I'm not paying for it.

Hear hear! Except maybe defund CBC as well since their days of being objective are long gone. I would love to have private healthcare in Alberta, I have no idea why we don't have a two tier healthcare system in place. They keep saying that it would be a brain drain in the public sector but that didn't happen in western or northern Europe so they're full of shit.
 
I'm pretty much here. I'm sick of my (Toronto and Ontario) taxes supporting pretty much the rest of your fucking bums.

We need to eliminate the equalization payment system, pay most of our taxes to province. The feds would be minimalistic influence at best, pay for the army, CBC, mail service, ensure some rights for every Canadian through SCOC etc.

The fuck do I care if Alberta wants a for-profit US style healthcare system of Quebec wants free daycare for everyone, so long as I'm not paying for it.
WTH?

The 3 biggest contributors of transfer payments for the last few decades are Ontario, ALberta and Quebec.

But Ontario dropped to debtor status lately thanks to over spending by successive Liberal gov'ts and has been receiving transfer payments and is only now just getting out of them.

federal-equalization-transfers.jpg


Even during this deep AB recession the last 3 years they still get no transfer payments and Quebec despite having record growth years still recieves the most.

But this is what you need to be angry at in Ontario. You need to purge the Liberal gov't from power and stop this.


With twice the debt of California, Ontario is now the world’s most indebted sub-sovereign borrower
 
WTH?

The 3 biggest contributors of transfer payments for the last few decades are Ontario, ALberta and Quebec.

But Ontario dropped to debtor status lately thanks to over spending by successive Liberal gov'ts and has been receiving transfer payments and is only now just getting out of them.

federal-equalization-transfers.jpg


Even during this deep AB recession the last 3 years they still get no transfer payments and Quebec despite having record growth years still recieves the most.

But this is what you need to be angry at in Ontario. You need to purge the Liberal gov't from power and stop this.


With twice the debt of California, Ontario is now the world’s most indebted sub-sovereign borrower
Despite being a 'recipient' of equalization, Ontario still manages to outpay everyone else. You are calling Ontario a deadbeat while it continues to foot the largest share of the bill.

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Despite being a 'recipient' of equalization, Ontario still manages to outpay everyone else. You are calling Ontario a deadbeat while it continues to foot the largest share of the bill.

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Alberta gives more than it gets from federal government:
...
Alberta contributed more money to the federal purse than any other province in Canada from 2007 to 2015, and has received fewer dollars in return, according to a study released Thursday...

...the province contributed $221.4 billion more in revenue than it received in federal transfer payments and other services in those years.

That works out to about $5,000 per Albertan, per year,...
...The report said that of the $158.3 billion paid out in equalization payments from 2008/09 to 2017/18, roughly $28.1 billion came from Alberta.

It said none of that money has flowed back into Alberta. And it said the province continues to “contribute disproportionately” despite its recent economic woes...

 
Despite being a 'recipient' of equalization, Ontario still manages to outpay everyone else. You are calling Ontario a deadbeat while it continues to foot the largest share of the bill.

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WTF Quebec!!!
 
Alberta gives more than it gets from federal government:
...
Alberta contributed more money to the federal purse than any other province in Canada from 2007 to 2015, and has received fewer dollars in return, according to a study released Thursday...

...the province contributed $221.4 billion more in revenue than it received in federal transfer payments and other services in those years.

That works out to about $5,000 per Albertan, per year,...
...The report said that of the $158.3 billion paid out in equalization payments from 2008/09 to 2017/18, roughly $28.1 billion came from Alberta.

It said none of that money has flowed back into Alberta. And it said the province continues to “contribute disproportionately” despite its recent economic woes...
I'm still waiting for you to take this back: "But Ontario dropped to debtor status lately"

If you won't take it back then I want you to explain to me how Ontario dropped to debtor status lately, when lately, it is the biggest net contributor.
 
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