Can i replace Deadlifts with low bar Squats?

EatMyShorts said:
Watching some of those Alan Thrall videos.

Working the posterior chain seems the key.

The low bar squat does this.
I do these exclusively - not high bar - my hip flexion means I get very poor depth with the high bar position.

I like doing hex bar deadlifts, and for some reason, straight bar deadlifts - if i use straps, it's awkward; if I go raw, I lose grip.

I'm just thinking - if the hex bar lifts focus more on the quads, which high bar squats normally do - would it make sense in a way to use that to work the quads, whilst using the low bar squat to work the posterior chain?
Cause I'm not hitting quads with my squats being low bar - so - I may as well use the hex bar for that, instead of hitting the same group with the two major exercises?

Theoretically, it sounds okay.

In reality?
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The hamstrings get worked more in the low bar than the high bar, but still not very much. The only squat with PC activation near that of a deadlift is going to be the wide-ass westside style box squat.
 
It depends on your leverages. Long femur and a short torso will translate to less quad activation and more posterior chain activation during a low bar squat vs. someone on the opposite side of the spectrum.

But that doesn't mean it's equal to a deadlift in terms of p. chain involvement. Especially once you start comparing it to the SLDL or RDL.

You're probably better off just working on your deadlift and squat without leaving one out. How else are you gonna get a nice set of quads?
 
How are you not "hitting your quads" with low bar squats?
 
Actually Alan Thrall has a video update explaining why he was wrong about low bar and quads. You are extending your knees -> quads.
 
I low-bar squatted 2 days ago, and my lower back and hamstrings are having huge DOMS right now. Quads not so much. I only recently switched from high-bar to low-bar, but it has a shit ton more posterior chain involvement than the regular high-bar.
 
LatFlare said:
How are you not "hitting your quads" with low bar squats?
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It's more about degree of activation than none at all. Not everyone will get maximal quad activation with a LBBS. The more a person has to fold over (due to individual anatomy, not bad form) means more hamstring and less quad. They're antagonizing muscles, they can't both be firing maximally. For people who are built right and have proper form, there's no problem with the LBBS.

Ultimately it comes down to the ratio between knee flexion and back extension, and how much of each is used during the squat to raise the barbell from the bottom to the top.
 
You barely use the hamstrings in a squat. You use the quads a shit load low bar, high bar, front squat...
 
Viskovitz said:
You barely use the hamstrings in a squat. You use the quads a shit load low bar, high bar, front squat...
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As @Cmart said, that's not true at all. There are many different ways to squat, but when you do a low bar back squat and sit back into the hole, you will absolutely get hamstring involvement. My entire squat is posterior chain until I'm at the last few inches of my lift then my quads come into play.

Either way you squat, it doesn't really matter. If you're squatting then you need to be deadlifting. It works the antagonizing muscle groups better than switching a squat style around from high bar to low bar. It's just a completely different movement and is too important to cut out. There's a reason people do both.
 
jgarner said:
As @Cmart said, that's not true at all. There are many different ways to squat, but when you do a low bar back squat and sit back into the hole, you will absolutely get hamstring involvement. My entire squat is posterior chain until I'm at the last few inches of my lift then my quads come into play.

Either way you squat, it doesn't really matter. If you're squatting then you need to be deadlifting. It works the antagonizing muscle groups better than switching a squat style around from high bar to low bar. It's just a completely different movement and is too important to cut out. There's a reason people do both.
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Well now hang on a second... your quads extend your knees so are you saying that you somehow manage to not extend your knees until the very end of a squat rep? How is that even possible if you are squatting to at least parallel?

As far as hamstring recruitment, I remember reading somewhere that they have a more isometric role in squats. When you descend they shorten at the knee but lengthen at the hip and vice versa when you ascend and it's the glutes and quads that are the prime movers.
 
DrBdan said:
Well now hang on a second... your quads extend your knees so are you saying that you somehow manage to not extend your knees until the very end of a squat rep? How is that even possible if you are squatting to at least parallel?

As far as hamstring recruitment, I remember reading somewhere that they have a more isometric role in squats. When you descend they shorten at the knee but lengthen at the hip and vice versa when you ascend and it's the glutes and quads that are the prime movers.
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While the quads are working some, most of the force is against my hamstrings and my glutes on the way down and most of the way back up. I feel my hamstrings stretch and my glutes firing until I'm 3/4 the way up, then my quads take over from there. My quads aren't doing the work to get me below parallel, that's my hamstrings and my glutes. Then the drive back up starts with pushing my back into the bar and driving my hips up at the same time. So I'm not sure what you've read, but that's how my body feels when I low bar squat. The next day it's my hamstrings, glutes, low back, upper back that feel sore. My quads don't get sore unless I do high rep back squats.
 
Well it is true, sorry guys.

The hams don't work very much in the squat because, as the Dr. said, the don't change length during the movement: they shorten at the knee buy extend at the hip. So they aren't movers and just hang in there the whole time - http://www.strongerbyscience.com/hamstrings-the-most-overrated-muscle-for-squat-2-0/

The quads get worked in every form of squat ever because you're extending at the knee, so the quads do the work (actually, not all the quads, the rectus femoris has the same problem as the hams, since it extends the knee and flex the hip it can't do much when you squat). More info here, also about the hammies - https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/perspectives/just-squat/)

And when you low bar, high bar of front squat you are recruiting the quads to their max. But you can high bar more than front squat, and low bar more than high bar, because you involve more hip extension in the movement (you bend-over more, so your hips close to a smaller angle, more ROM at the hips.... think glutes and addductor magnus, not hams). Also because when front squatting the bar is further away from the torso so it's harder for your back to not give out and lose the squat forward. More and better here - http://www.strongerbyscience.com/high-bar-and-low-bar-squatting-2-0/

To answer the OP, no. You should include a hip hinge dominant movement (deadlifts in all variations are great, also hip thrust, heavy swigns...) and a knee extension dominant or "squat" movement in your programs.

Edit: to all who's arguing that "my squats feels..." it doesn't matter how you your squat feels.
 
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DrBdan said:
Well now hang on a second... your quads extend your knees so are you saying that you somehow manage to not extend your knees until the very end of a squat rep? How is that even possible if you are squatting to at least parallel?

As far as hamstring recruitment, I remember reading somewhere that they have a more isometric role in squats. When you descend they shorten at the knee but lengthen at the hip and vice versa when you ascend and it's the glutes and quads that are the prime movers.
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Quads are the prime movers ≠ hamstrings are hardly used.
 
Viskovitz said:
Well it is true, sorry guys.

The hams don't work very much in the squat because, as the Dr. said, the don't change length during the movement: they shorten at the knee buy extend at the hip. So they aren't movers and just hang in there the whole time - http://www.strongerbyscience.com/hamstrings-the-most-overrated-muscle-for-squat-2-0/

The quads get worked in every form of squat ever because you're extending at the knee, so the quads do the work (actually, not all the quads, the rectus femoris has the same problem as the hams, since it extends the knee and flex the hip it can't do much when you squat). More info here, also about the hammies - https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/perspectives/just-squat/)

And when you low bar, high bar of front squat you are recruiting the quads to their max. But you can high bar more than front squat, and low bar more than high bar, because you involve more hip extension in the movement (you bend-over more, so your hips close to a smaller angle, more ROM at the hips.... think glutes and addductor magnus, not hams). Also because when front squatting the bar is further away from the torso so it's harder for your back to not give out and lose the squat forward. More and better here - http://www.strongerbyscience.com/high-bar-and-low-bar-squatting-2-0/

To answer the OP, no. You should include a hip hinge dominant movement (deadlifts in all variations are great, also hip thrust, heavy swigns...) and a knee extension dominant or "squat" movement in your programs.

Edit: to all who's arguing that "my squats feels..." it doesn't matter how you your squat feels.
Click to expand...

This would be a great post if everyone in the world had the same anatomy and squatted in the exact same manner, but they don't.

Just because you're extending the knee doesn't mean you're maximizing the amount of force placed on the quadriceps. For example, if while extending the knee you are shooting your hips up and leaning over, you're simply transferring the load from the quads onto the posterior chain. This will be evident because the relative height of the barbell to the ground won't increase as much during knee extension as it would of if the person was completely upright. Work = Force x distance. If the distance the barbell travels during knee extension is maximized, then that means more work is done by the quads at the same load.

If you maintain an upright position for the entire squat, that means your quads are driving the majority of the movement and generating the majority of the force all the way from point A (the bottom) to point B (lockout). The force isn't being transferred from one muscle group to another. When squatting like this, it also means that the quads are handling the majority of the load during the moments of peak force generation (e.g. at the bottom of the squat when reversing from the eccentric portion), rather than distributing it more evenly alongside the posterior chain.

Yeah, tons of people don't need a lot of forward lean in a low bar back squat. But lots of people do, and in order for them to keep the barbell over their center of gravity and in line with the heel/midfoot, they have to either significantly widen their stance or lean over more at the bottom of the squat and during knee extension. And even then, some particular poor bastards will still have a tough time keeping that bar in position.

None of this is new information. When Clarence Kennedy went to train with the Polish National Weightlifting team the head coach told him his quads were weak. So he made him do a shit load of front squats to try and correct the deficit. This is common practice among weightlifters.

And yeah, it matters how your squats feel. I don't know when it became trendy to disregard proprioception in training, but I have a feeling it's because of the scientism that's prevelent in online lifting communities. Most exercise science simply presents the mean/median experience and does little to tell us of individual idiosyncrasies. Personal experience and individual proprioception are still extremely valuable tools.
 
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We tend to science the shit out of shit for the sake of shit. Clearly when you squat front, back, side, one-legged, two legged, lunges, step-up and step down, you are using your quads and your hammies, and your ass muscles. Just fucking squat already. pick a fucking plan, follow it! Fuck!
 
I literally can't imagine anyone who has squatted for a while saying that hamstrings are barely used in a squat. Was that really the wording you were going for?
 
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