Businesses refusing services vs social media disabling accounts

Oh, I understand that there are technical distinctions that we can legalese our way into letting one fly, but this paragraph is telling to what I was getting at:

"On a side note, anyone remember the uproar when a supermarket refused to put a 3 year old kid's name on a cake? No? Me neither. No-one really seemed to give a rat's arse about denial of service then, whatever technicalities were involved."

And your twice mentioning that you're making no claims about the right or wrong of it shows me that you know what I'm getting at. When one thing happened, there was *outrage* over "HOW could this be done?" Now, let's not pretend that the mass outrage over the one and lack in the other case was driven by careful attention to legal technicality and rather it was a case of people not giving a shit when a cake is baked/not baked for a person/cause they don't like, but when it happens to someone they support/have sympathy for, they suddenly want to make a big deal out of it. In the public consciousness, people being given a service was never actually an issue - the very fine distinction of legal technicality just isn't an issue in the public consciousness until it can be used to suit an agenda - all that matters is who it happens to. The act in question, the baking of a cake or not, isn't important. If tomorrow a bakery refused to bake a cake celebrating Trump's presidency or something, all the people who were all pro-freedom to refuse service would suddenly be outraged, and the people who were previously upset about the wedding cake for the gay marriage would be "Well, you know, we can't really force a bakery to do that..."

Though it's a stopped clock type scenario, it took Rush Limbaugh to draw one side's double standard into the spotlight over this:

"RUSH: Somebody just said, “Hey, Rush, did you hear about the guy that walked into a Muslim bakery in Dearborn and was turned down?” Yeah, I heard about it. The guy is a former Fox News contributor and an actor and a comedian named Steven Crowder, and he walked into a Muslim bakery in Dearbornistan, Michigan, and he told them that he wanted them to bake a cake for his gay wedding, and he was turned down.

And everybody’s asking, where’s the outrage? I’m so glad you brought this up, because, see, it’s not about that. You would expect that if there’s anti-gay bigotry, there’s anti-gay bigotry, wherever it is, it’s unacceptable. And so Crowder just found some anti-gay bigotry in Dearbornistan, Michigan, Muslim bakery. Well, you see, Muslims — (interruption) Dearbornistan, it’s a joke. Yes, it’s Dearbornistan. Everybody in Michigan calls it that. This is just lighthearted jocularity. Don’t panic in there.

This makes a great point. You see, folks, this isn’t about anti-gay bigotry. If it were, there would be just as much outrage at this Muslim bakery, but they don’t care. The Drive-Bys, the militant gays, they don’t care. They went shopping for this in Indiana. They went shopping for it. They went shopping for it New Mexico. They went shopping for it in Oregon. They went shopping for it in Colorado."

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/...chigan_refuse_to_bake_cakes_for_gay_weddings/

(I know it wasn't Rush who did the video, but he is the one who brought it to a wider public's attention)

Whatever legal technicality we choose to bring up to and can, in finer point, allow us to make this distinction, those finer technicalities are not what drive this narrative and this outrage and it's a bit disingenuous to pretend - not that you're doing that - like that's what the people outraged over this, on either side, are concerned with.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the strong arm of the law ever came crashing down on those Muslim bakeries? Did they eventually give? Did it ever make CNN/NBC/etc?

I made the right/wrong point twice because there are people who will take my limited point beyond the scope of my intent.

And I saying that there's no outrage (or significantly less outrage) because the 2 issues are not analogous enough to warrant similar responses. Refusing to bake the entire cake is a big enough difference from refusing to apply the icing in a specific way that people won't respond similarly. If the lesbian couple had been denied icing that depicted scissoring, they wouldn't have received anywhere near the support. Or if the boy had been refused an entire cake, he would have gotten more outrage in his favor.

The situations are nothing like each other in terms of eliciting sympathy, except by stretching them far beyond what actually happened.
 
You are answering your own question.

You are talking about products on the facebook part, yet people on the second part.

Maybe so . . .
 
And the Christian bakery has that ability so long as they don't run an open door policy for customers. If they were a referral based business or a "every cake requires pre-approval, no walk-ins" type of business they absolutely could have denied the cake with no issue.

I get that . . . except that IMO telling a customer no should always be an option whether you have business hours "open to the public" or not.
 
A private business should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

If you want to protest a business for not allowing outwardly gay customers? Do it. Spread the word. The local market will determine whether or not that business stays open. And if it does? Go to a different store. You likely have options, outside of small towns. And if you discover that you live in a small town that is largely apathetic to discrimination against you and other gay folks? Maybe it's not a very gay-friendly area, and it's probably a good thing that you found out that your next door neighbor doesn't give a shit about you.
 
Maybe so . . .

The point is that you are entitled to get service like everyone else, not entitled to service tailored to you.

For example if the lesbian couple had wanted a cake that celebrated LGBT rights, as in decorated with rainbows of shit like that then the bakery has a right to deny it.

But the couple wanted a regular wedding cake which is a product they normally carried.
 
I get that . . . except that IMO telling a customer no should always be an option whether you have business hours "open to the public" or not.

Telling them no is always an option so long as you're not violating federal/state law while you do it. If you want to operate your business without the regulatory burden of federal/state law then you can't operate an "open to the public business" because once it's "open to the public" then the government has to act on behalf of that public.

Businesses can't have it both ways. They can't court the public but be above the protections that exist for that public.

If your business requires licensing or inspections to sell to the general public then you're stuck to a degree.
 
Oh, I understand that there are technical distinctions that we can legalese our way into letting one fly, but this paragraph is telling to what I was getting at:

"On a side note, anyone remember the uproar when a supermarket refused to put a 3 year old kid's name on a cake? No? Me neither. No-one really seemed to give a rat's arse about denial of service then, whatever technicalities were involved."

And your twice mentioning that you're making no claims about the right or wrong of it shows me that you know what I'm getting at. When one thing happened, there was *outrage* over "HOW could this be done?" Now, let's not pretend that the mass outrage over the one and lack in the other case was driven by careful attention to legal technicality and rather it was a case of people not giving a shit when a cake is baked/not baked for a person/cause they don't like, but when it happens to someone they support/have sympathy for, they suddenly want to make a big deal out of it. In the public consciousness, people being given a service was never actually an issue - the very fine distinction of legal technicality just isn't an issue in the public consciousness until it can be used to suit an agenda - all that matters is who it happens to. The act in question, the baking of a cake or not, isn't important. If tomorrow a bakery refused to bake a cake celebrating Trump's presidency or something, all the people who were all pro-freedom to refuse service would suddenly be outraged, and the people who were previously upset about the wedding cake for the gay marriage would be "Well, you know, we can't really force a bakery to do that..."

Though it's a stopped clock type scenario, it took Rush Limbaugh to draw one side's double standard into the spotlight over this:

"RUSH: Somebody just said, “Hey, Rush, did you hear about the guy that walked into a Muslim bakery in Dearborn and was turned down?” Yeah, I heard about it. The guy is a former Fox News contributor and an actor and a comedian named Steven Crowder, and he walked into a Muslim bakery in Dearbornistan, Michigan, and he told them that he wanted them to bake a cake for his gay wedding, and he was turned down.

And everybody’s asking, where’s the outrage? I’m so glad you brought this up, because, see, it’s not about that. You would expect that if there’s anti-gay bigotry, there’s anti-gay bigotry, wherever it is, it’s unacceptable. And so Crowder just found some anti-gay bigotry in Dearbornistan, Michigan, Muslim bakery. Well, you see, Muslims — (interruption) Dearbornistan, it’s a joke. Yes, it’s Dearbornistan. Everybody in Michigan calls it that. This is just lighthearted jocularity. Don’t panic in there.

This makes a great point. You see, folks, this isn’t about anti-gay bigotry. If it were, there would be just as much outrage at this Muslim bakery, but they don’t care. The Drive-Bys, the militant gays, they don’t care. They went shopping for this in Indiana. They went shopping for it. They went shopping for it New Mexico. They went shopping for it in Oregon. They went shopping for it in Colorado."

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/...chigan_refuse_to_bake_cakes_for_gay_weddings/

(I know it wasn't Rush who did the video, but he is the one who brought it to a wider public's attention)

Whatever legal technicality we choose to bring up to and can, in finer point, allow us to make this distinction, those finer technicalities are not what drive this narrative and this outrage and it's a bit disingenuous to pretend - not that you're doing that - like that's what the people outraged over this, on either side, are concerned with.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the strong arm of the law ever came crashing down on those Muslim bakeries? Did they eventually give? Did it ever make CNN/NBC/etc?
This post makes me want to transition into a wedding cake and eat myself.
 
"RUSH: Somebody just said, “Hey, Rush, did you hear about the guy that walked into a Muslim bakery in Dearborn and was turned down?” Yeah, I heard about it. The guy is a former Fox News contributor and an actor and a comedian named Steven Crowder, and he walked into a Muslim bakery in Dearbornistan, Michigan, and he told them that he wanted them to bake a cake for his gay wedding, and he was turned down.
Fake news, we all know Crowder isn't a comedian
 
It's the one with 2 Ken dolls on it. Do we have to draw you a picture?

So if you don't put ken dolls on it, is it a bi-curious wedding cake? I mean, clearly you're versed in wedding cake sexuality, elaborate for me.
 
So if you don't put ken dolls on it, is it a bi-curious wedding cake? I mean, clearly you're versed in wedding cake sexuality, elaborate for me.
Only if you make eye contact.

BTW: when one refers to a "gay wedding cake" they're referring to a cake for a gay wedding. Ain't nobody trying to say the cake is gay.
<seedat>
 
Only if you make eye contact.

BTW: when one refers to a "gay wedding cake" they're referring to a cake for a gay wedding. Ain't nobody trying to say the cake is gay.
<seedat>

Yes, i'm well aware of that. That's my point. If I ask for a cake from a christian baker, and I take it to a gay wedding, did I infringe on their religious rights? Obviously not, so it has to be something about the cake. I already conceded that they would have a case in the event of obscenity, but what if the cake isn't obscene? What if it's just a regular ass cake that happens to be going to a gay wedding?

If we're calling that violating religious rights, then that cake must sneeze glitter, it's so damn gay. I wanna know how.
 
Yes, i'm well aware of that. That's my point. If I ask for a cake from a christian baker, and I take it to a gay wedding, did I infringe on their religious rights? Obviously not, so it has to be something about the cake. I already conceded that they would have a case in the event of obscenity, but what if the cake isn't obscene? What if it's just a regular ass cake that happens to be going to a gay wedding?

If we're calling that violating religious rights, then that cake must sneeze glitter, it's so damn gay. I wanna know how.
Ok fair enough. Let me pose this thought experiment. Some baker doesn't want to bake a gay wedding cake (and I think we agree on what that is now) and some feel he should be forced to do so.

Now if I went into a liberal bakeshop and asked for a "Make America Great Again" cake, should they be forced to comply? Keyword is forced, assume they really don't want to do this. We can say yes or no but I'm going to guess then same people who feel that gay cakes are a civil right will now defend their right to fight against "hate speech cakes".

BTW: I wouldn't buy a cake that was made under duress because I'm pretty sure it would get plenty of spit in it. That's just me though.
 
Ok fair enough. Let me pose this thought experiment. Some baker doesn't want to bake a gay wedding cake (and I think we agree on what that is now) and some feel he should be forced to do so.

Now if I went into a liberal bakeshop and asked for a "Make America Great Again" cake, should they be forced to comply? Keyword is forced, assume they really don't want to do this. We can say yes or no but I'm going to guess then same people who feel that gay cakes are a civil right will now defend their right to fight against "hate speech cakes".

BTW: I wouldn't buy a cake that was made under duress because I'm pretty sure it would get plenty of spit in it. That's just me though.

I tend to think about it in terms of obscenity. Is there anything overt that goes against accepted standards of decency and morality? I would classify gay imagery as overtly offensive to christians, hence why I would give allowance to refusing baking the cake in that circumstance. MAGA, despite the distasteful implications, would not fit the bill. That's an issue of ideological difference, not necessarily a deeply held belief. I would expect them to make that cake. Now if it was a Klan cake, we would be talking about obscenity on racial grounds, which I would not expect them to bake.
 
I tend to think about it in terms of obscenity. Is there anything overt that goes against accepted standards of decency and morality? I would classify gay imagery as overtly offensive to christians, hence why I would give allowance to refusing baking the cake in that circumstance. MAGA, despite the distasteful implications, would not fit the bill. That's an issue of ideological difference, not necessarily a deeply held belief. I would expect them to make that cake. Now if it was a Klan cake, we would be talking about obscenity on racial grounds, which I would not expect them to bake.
I'm actually cool with any standard as long as it's applied equally. Otherwise I'll just buy a plain cake and ice the damn thing myself.
 
Ok fair enough. Let me pose this thought experiment. Some baker doesn't want to bake a gay wedding cake (and I think we agree on what that is now) and some feel he should be forced to do so.

Now if I went into a liberal bakeshop and asked for a "Make America Great Again" cake, should they be forced to comply? Keyword is forced, assume they really don't want to do this. We can say yes or no but I'm going to guess then same people who feel that gay cakes are a civil right will now defend their right to fight against "hate speech cakes".

BTW: I wouldn't buy a cake that was made under duress because I'm pretty sure it would get plenty of spit in it. That's just me though.

Again, being refused service because of your condition as a customer isnt the same as being refused service because of the conditions of a product.

The christian bakery refused to make a regular wedding cake, because the customers were lesbians, simple as that, they werent asking for a cake shaped like a vagina, just a regular cake.

So if you go to a regular cake store and buy a regular cake to take to your personal MAGA party, then yeah, you shouldnt be denied service.

Thats quite different than asking for a cake that says MAGA on it.
 
The christian bakery refused to make a regular wedding cake, because the customers were lesbians, simple as that, they werent asking for a cake shaped like a vagina, just a regular cake..
If this is an actual case then that's not right. But at the end of the day it's just a cake and I think everyone has bigger things to focus their attention on.
 
Hate speech! Hate speech! I am outraged. I am triggered. We will not stand for this!

 
does facebook have to fill out an accident report when someone gets mentally injured on their website?
 
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