Brexit News & Discussion v6: EU Leaders Go to Battle Over Plugging Post-Brexit Budget Gap

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Oh how I wish we have a Sherdogger from Spain to join in this debate!

Yes, I guess it comes down to the importance of the issue.
Spain assuming a yes vote for Scotland might lead to Catalan independence is a bit more of an issue than a bunch of Belgium farmers not liking a deal because of beef imports.
Not much you can do if Spain really thinks that.
 
Yeah but a low Euro benefits Germany a lot. Not saying Scotland in the EU wouldn't benefit Germany.
But Spain is the much more important partner compared to Scotland even with all that oil.
Scotland is just a small country with a small population compared to Spain which would be the 4th largest economy in the EU with like 50 million people.
That is a big market for Germany in addition you have a lot of young educated Spanish people getting into the German labor market.

Now I personally would like to see Scotland in the EU or the UK also.
But if this is a make or break issue for Spain I don't see the EU specially Germany strongarming Spain into accepting it.
Because you have other countries with similar issues like Belgium.
Scotland is just not important or big enough to risk a serious issue within the EU.

This. Germany has no interest in strengthening the Euro too much.
 
oil isnt the only thing scotland has...but its something the entire world needs. so we have serious leverage if we become independent.

all we would have to do to benefit the entire Eurozone would be accept the currency, which would boost the value of the currency against the dollar(which is the international currency most debt is purchased in). so hey presto, lower monthly interest payments and less debt

Look I have complete sympathies for your position. But I fear this is wishful thinking. Scotland can either be independent and potentially a member of Efta or it can be part of the UK with all consequences.
 
Oh how I wish we have a Sherdogger from Spain to join in this debate!

My parents have lived there for the last 18 years, according to them the bigger concern is about the 310,000 UK immigrants living there. Most are pensioners, who are shiting themselves about the thought of having to move back to the UK, given the cost of living there compared to Spain. Right now they're scrambling to obtain EU citizenship before they lose benefits like medical, free travel, holiday vouchers etc.
 
Funny how the Britons act surprised that the EU does not hold back Spain and protect Britain like they did when the UK was a full member.



We won't though imo. We need Spain more than we need Scotland.

It's a rather simple concept to understand, especially from a neutral point of view.

1) Spain will look out for Spain's interests.

2) Brussels will always put the E.U members' interests over the "outsiders".

Ergo,

3) Spain's concerns > Britain's sovereignty over Gibraltar and Scotland's wishful thinking about an automatic EU entry.

Ultimately, Spain's decision to veto or not veto on both issues will be up to Spain alone. Get yourselves ready for some quality diplomatic maneuvering, there will be plenty of it in the next 24 months.
 
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EU says it doesn't want to 'punish' Britain for leaving
"Brexit is punitive enough," said Donald Tusk
By Laura Smith-Spark, Erin McLaughlin and Lindsay Isaac | March 31, 2017

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Donald Tusk, President of the European Council, speaks in Valletta, Malta.


The European Union has set out its draft negotiating position on Brexit -- and declared that it does not want to punish Britain for leaving.

"Brexit is punitive enough," said Donald Tusk, President of the European Council.

The EU nevertheless set out a tough set of principles for Brexit negotiations. They offer the possibility that trade talks could begin before the UK leaves -- but only after "sufficient progress" is made on the complex task of untangling Britain from the EU.

In her letter triggering the UK's formal exit from the EU, British Prime Minister Theresa May had asked for a parallel approach from the start.

Tusk ruled that out, saying that the talks on trade could only begin once there had been enough progress on the withdrawal agreement. A final trade deal would not be concluded until after Brexit.

According to the negotiating guidelines, progress on a number of key areas must be made before preliminary discussions on trade can start. They include:
  • protecting the rights of EU citizens in Britain and UK citizens in other EU nations;
  • working out the bill for Britain's exit, based on its financial commitments and liabilities;
  • establishing a clear legal framework to avoid uncertainty for businesses and institutions;
  • how to maintain a "soft" border between the Republican of Ireland, which will remain in the EU, and Northern Ireland, part of the UK.
"These four issues are all part of the first phase of our negotiations," Tusk said in Valletta, Malta, where center-right EU leaders are meeting.

"Once, and only once we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal, can we discuss the framework for our future relationship. Starting parallel talks on all issues at the same time, as suggested by some in the UK, will not happen."

'Damage control'

Tusk said the EU would "firmly stand by" the proposals in the document and characterized the thorny process ahead as, in essence, "damage control."

"The talks which are about to start will be difficult, complex and sometimes even confrontational. There is no way around it. The EU27 does not and will not pursue a punitive approach. Brexit in itself is already punitive enough," he said.
But after more than 40 years of marriage, he said, "we owe it to each other to do everything we can to make this divorce as smooth as possible."
The British government said it looked forward to beginning negotiations once the draft guidelines have been formally agreed by the other 27 EU states. Leaders of the 27 states will discuss their negotiating position at a summit at the end of April before formal talks with Britain begin.

"It is clear both sides wish to approach these talks constructively, and as the Prime Minister said this week, wish to ensure a deep and special partnership between the UK and the European Union," a UK government spokesman said.

Even as the process gets under way, it's clear that many obstacles and potential pitfalls lie ahead.

May has already been accused of threatening to use the safety of UK and European citizens as a bargaining chip in Brexit talks after she warned in the formal letter notifying the EU of Britain's intention to leave that the failure to strike a deal on any future relationship would have consequences for security.

Possibility of failure

The draft EU document, which runs to nine pages, lays out EU leaders' plans for a phased approach to negotiations, with trade talks to begin only when the EU is ready.

"The British government has indicated that it ... would like to pursue an ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union. Based on the Union's interests, the European Council stands ready to initiate work towards such an agreement, to be finalised and concluded once the United Kingdom is no longer a Member State," the document says.

The draft guidelines also recognize the possibility that talks between Britain and the EU members might fail.

"In these negotiations the Union will act as one. It will be constructive throughout and will strive to find an agreement. This is in the best interest of both sides. The Union will work hard to achieve that outcome, but it will prepare itself to be able to handle the situation also if the negotiations were to fail," the document says.

Negotiations under Article 50 "will be conducted as a single package," the document adds. "In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately."

May formally triggered the Brexit process on Wednesday, firing the starting gun on a two-year effort to disentangle Britain from the European Union.

Brexit Secretary David Davis on Thursday unveiled the UK government's plans to transpose decades of EU law into domestic law when Britain leaves the bloc, through the so-called Great Repeal Bill.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/31/europe/eu-uk-brexit-trade/
 
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Top EU diplomat says Britain's security, defence power is no leverage in Brexit talks
By Gabriela Baczynska | Mar 31, 2017

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European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs Federica Mogherini

The European Union's top diplomat said on Friday the effect of Brexit on the bloc's joint defence and security operations would be minimal, following a veiled threat from London that it could curb such ties with the alliance if divorce talks turn sour.

Britain, which formally launched the process of leaving the EU on Wednesday, wants simultaneous talks on Brexit and future ties with the EU's remaining 27 states, especially on trade.

EU states and authorities in Brussels are much cooler towards that idea, seeing a future trade deal with Britain as a strong bargaining chip.

Britain, a leading European military power, has suggested it could use its strong standing on military and defence in the same way - prompting warnings from EU officials.

Triggering the Brexit process, Prime Minister Theresa May said in a letter to the EU said "our cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened" if Britain left without a new deal on trade and other matters.

Federica Mogherini, arriving in Brussels for a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, said Britain was providing 3 percent of the EU's foreign civilian missions and 5 percent of the military ones.

"It's a valued contribution but for sure a contribution without which the European Union defence and security can continue perfectly well," she told journalists. "So the leverage in that respect would be really minimal on their side."

Cooperation would in any case continue, she said.

"I wish we could and we will establish a good and solid security and defence cooperation also after Brexit. For sure the European Union and Britain will continue to cooperate in this field, also through our cooperation with NATO."

Other than France, Britain is the only EU state that has the capacity to run large-scale foreign military operations on its own.

Britain's intelligence service is also powerful, not least through its "Five Eyes" pact with the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

On Friday, the EU of 27 proposed Britain would just have to show "sufficient progress" on its divorce settlement in a first phase of Brexit negotiations to have the bloc agree to open trade talks.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-defence-mogherini-idUKKBN1721TN
 
Looks like Spain wont block Scotland after all @Deachkalek

Spain has said it would not veto an attempt by an independent Scotland to join the EU, in a boost to Nicola Sturgeon’s campaign for a second independence referendum and the clearest sign yet that Brexit has softened Madrid’s longstanding opposition.

Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland’s EU hopes, although he stressed that Madrid would not welcome the disintegration of the UK.

He also said Edinburgh would have to apply for membership, a process fraught with uncertainty that is likely to take several years. But asked directly whether Spain would veto an independent Scotland joining the EU, Dastis said: “No, we wouldn’t.”

Madrid is keen not to fuel Catalonia’s desire for independence. “We don’t want it [Scottish independence] to happen,” he said. “But if it happens legally and constitutionally, we would not block it. We don’t encourage the breakup of any member states, because we think the future goes in a different direction.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu
 
Fuking the Scottish and now fucking the English.

Spain is on a fucking roll.

...and then they'll quickly have the Brits at each others' throats again by throwing out random scraps of "I think, initially, we'll see". :D

Have your popcorn ready, folks! There's going to be plenty of side-show political maneuverings in the next 24 months.

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Spain eases opposition to an independent Scotland in EU
Sun Apr 2, 2017 | 7:32 AM EDT

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Spain, at loggerheads with Britain over Gibraltar, appears to be easing its opposition to an independent Scotland in the European Union, saying it would not block such a move - at least initially.

The Scottish independence drive -- now resuscitated by the prospect of Britain's departure from the EU -- is highly controversial in Spain because of the secessionist movement in Catalonia.

As a result, Madrid has long been seen as an obstacle to an independent Scotland joining the EU after Brexit. But its foreign minister, Alfonso Dastis, threw that in doubt on Sunday.

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"Initially, I don't think we would block it," he said in an interview published in El Pais.

However, he added Scotland would have to leave the EU with Britain, and "the rest we will see".

He also said Spain did not welcome fragmentation of the Europe.

"Having said that, if, in application of its laws, the outcome of that process is a division of the United Kingdom, any part of the United Kingdom that becomes a state and wants to join the EU will have to apply. And follow the steps that are stipulated," he said.

The comments come after a week in which the issue of Gibraltar, a British oversees territory on Spain's south coast, has stirred tensions between London and Madrid.

The EU has said that, following Brexit itself, no future EU-Britain pact that affects Gibraltar can be made without Madrid's approval.

Britain has reacted sharply, saying its support for the territory, ceded by Spain in 1713 and which wants to remain British, is "implacable".

Dastis refused talk about veto rights when it comes to Gibraltar but said he viewed the EU's stance very positively.

"When the United Kingdom leaves the EU, the EU partner is Spain, and in the case of Gibraltar the EU is therefore obliged to take the side of Spain," he said. "I do not think it's necessary to talk about vetoes".




 
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Let Scotland leave the UK and join the EU. Then the Muslims and Euros can relocate to Scotland where they are more welcome and leave England.
 
Central banks cut euro exposure and favour sterling

https://www.ft.com/content/692768f4-17a3-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

loool. Be interesting to see how the fear mongers and doom and gloom merchants spin this one. The EU is a failing institution with a failing currency and we are getting out at the right time. Now obviously the banks wanted the UK to stay in the EU so they could continue playing the markets against each to line their own pockets. But now this is going to be much more difficult so they have had to 'choose a side' as it were and clearly the worthless Euro is not a very attractive option. Suck it up Eurocrats and statist lemmings, the game is up. Rule Britannia.
 
Central banks cut euro exposure and favour sterling

https://www.ft.com/content/692768f4-17a3-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

loool. Be interesting to see how the fear mongers and doom and gloom merchants spin this one. The EU is a failing institution with a failing currency and we are getting out at the right time. Now obviously the banks wanted the UK to stay in the EU so they could continue playing the markets against each to line their own pockets. But now this is going to be much more difficult so they have had to 'choose a side' as it were and clearly the worthless Euro is not a very attractive option. Suck it up Eurocrats and statist lemmings, the game is up. Rule Britannia.

EU central bank has been running negative interest rates for a long time and their inflation rate is still on the risk of deflation.

So i dont see what the problem is, if the EU central bank matched the Bank of England interest rates it would cause the opposite.
 
oh you brits, why stop at gibraltar? Why not make a run for the duchy of Aquitaine and Calais? Make Gibraltar Jibr Al-Tariq again. And in the end, have prince Henry of House Windsor married off to Leonor, princess of Asturias, of House Bourbon, first of her name (in about 7 years, when she’s of age).
 




Brexit and Gibraltar: May laughs off Spain 'war' talk




Prime Minister Theresa May has laughed off journalists' questions about going to war with Spain following the Gibraltar Brexit row.

Mrs May said her approach to negotiations was "definitely jaw jaw".

On Sunday ex-Tory leader Lord Howard said the PM would defend Gibraltar in the same way as Margaret Thatcher defended the Falklands in the 1982 war.

Spain's foreign minister said his government was "surprised by the tone of comments coming out of Britain".

"It seems someone is losing their cool," Alfonso Dastis told a conference in Madrid.

The current row was sparked by draft Brexit negotiating guidelines published by the EU last Friday saying any decisions affecting Gibraltar would be run past Spain.

The guidelines said: "After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."

Speaking to reporters on a flight to Jordan, Mrs May was asked if - borrowing from a phase used by Winston Churchill - Britain's approach should be described as "jaw jaw, not war war".

"It's definitely jaw jaw," replied the PM, who laughed when asked to rule out a war with Spain.

"What we are doing, with all EU countries in the EU is sitting down and talking to them," she said.

"We're going to be talking to them about getting the best possible deal for the UK and for those countries - Spain included."

Mrs May said British policy on Gibraltar had not, and would not, change.

Gibraltar's chief minister Fabian Picardo said: "Gibraltar is not a bargaining chip in these negotiations. Gibraltar belongs to the Gibraltarians and we want to stay British."

Mr Picardo urged European Council President Donald Tusk to remove the reference to Gibraltar.

"Mr Tusk, who has been given to using the analogies of the divorce and divorce petition, is behaving like a cuckolded husband who is taking it out on the children," he said.

The EU's guidelines followed a letter from Mrs May formally triggering Brexit talks, which did not mention Gibraltar directly.

Lord Howard raised the spectre of military action, saying that 35 years ago, "another woman prime minister sent a taskforce halfway across the world to protect another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country.

"And I'm absolutely clear that our current woman prime minister will show the same resolve in relation to Gibraltar as her predecessor did."

After Argentina invaded the Falklands in 1982, Margaret Thatcher sent a task force to reclaim the islands, in the South Atlantic.

An estimated 655 Argentine and 255 British servicemen lost their lives in the fighting that followed.

Former Labour foreign secretary Jack Straw, whose 2002 referendum asking Gibraltarians if they wanted Britain to share sovereignty with Spain was rejected by 99% to 1%, dismissed the threat of military action as "frankly absurd and reeks of 19th century jingoism", adding that Britain leaving the EU would result in "all sorts of problems" popping up.

"For the Spanish, Gibraltar is an affront to their sense of national identity and their sense of sovereignty - it's a bit like having a part of Dover owned by Spain," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

Mr Straw said while Britain was in the EU "we held equal cards with Spain", but once it left, the situation would be reversed, with the 27 EU nations "holding the cards".

Lib Dem leader Tim Farron said of Lord Howard's comments: "In only a few days the Conservative right are turning long-term allies into potential enemies."

But Brexit Secretary David Davis, in Spain for meetings with members of its government, said Lord Howard was expressing the "resolve" of the UK in supporting the sovereignty of Gibraltar. He made it clear any talk of Falklands style taskforces "wasn't going to happen".

Former Labour minister Lord Foulkes used House of Lords' question time to ask why Gibraltar had not been mentioned in Mrs May's letter to the EU last week, which triggered the start of Brexit negotiations.

Foreign Office Minister Baroness Anelay of St John's replied, saying the government took the matter "so seriously" it did not want to mention just one aspect of the negotiations in a letter that set out general principles which all applied to Gibraltar.

Spain has long contested Britain's 300 year-rule of Gibraltar, which has a population of about 30,000.

 
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Spain should build a wall and make the British pay for it !
 
@mygoddotcom @lapollarecords and @El Chapo has close relatives there..

count me in too. on one hand i dont give a shit one way or another about a rock in the ocean but its always fun to stick it to the British because they are wankers no one likes.

also the notion of former colonial empires clinging on to these little puny scraps of territories is kind of embarrassing IMO. Its like a guy with a wisp of a comb over who refuses to come to terms with the fact hes now bald.:D
 
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spanish citizen (ethnic basque, so probably biased) here. too lazy and hungover to read the whole thread. what's the question?

You don't have to read the whole thread, mate. There are many articles neatly indexed in the OP, but the ones pertain to Spain's role in this game are basically this one, this one, and then this one.

Kinda funny that much of this series of discussion has been focused on Germany and France, but Spain might turn out to be the bull in the teapot shop.

 
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