BREXIT Discussion, v4.0: The Back-Pedaling

[in the]

^^^^

Uh - are you forgetting that the British Commonwealth was also part of the Allies?

I can understand the immigration issue but what's wrong with people wearing clothes that are different?

I'm a bit torn on the issue of face veils but ultimately I think they are garbage and only seek to suppress women. I don't think it's possible to have a society where women are equal to men in the eyes of the law and also have women covered up in a niqab/burka. It's a symbol of oppression and inequality.

 

[Arkain2K]

New Zealand and Australia to "piggy-back" trade proposals with the U.K
By Audrey Young
June 27, 2016

Malcolm Turnbull faces a general election on Saturday and took time out of his campaign schedule for the discussion with John Key​

New Zealand Prime Minister John Key spoke with Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull today about how to approach the British exit from the European Union.

"Where it makes sense we will co-operate together," Mr Key said later. "Where it is appropriate we will do things under our own steam."

Mr Key ruled out making any joint approach to Britain to negotiate trade access together but said there could be a chance to "piggy-back each other" in other areas of similarity.

"Where there are similarities, we will probably be able to piggy-back each other."

But there would not be a joint approach for a free trade agreement with Britain because of differences in each's economy.

Mr Turnbull faces a general election on Saturday and took time out of his campaign schedule for the discussion with Mr Key.

Both are former merchant bankers and Mr Key said he expects the global markets to settle down after the "shock and awe" on Friday which saw $2 trillion wiped off the value of global equities after the shock vote.

"Now they have had a chance to digest that and probably get a sense of how long this process ultimately will be, I think the markets will settle down and we will see some of that value restored on the global equity markets," he said at his post-Cabinet press conference.

"Then you will get down to the really hard yards ultimately of both Britain working through its divorce proceedings essentially with the EU; and New Zealand and Australia and the likes having to complete its access arrangements both in the EU and in Britain."

The British would be under pressure because they would be working simultaneously on negotiating their exit from the European Union and the terms of access with non-EU countries such as Australia and New Zealand.

The long-term implications were more for the British economy and its capacity to compete in Europe than the global stage.

New Zealand's current access arrangements for trade and people to both Britain and Europe will remain in place, in the meantime.

Trade Minister Todd McClay is due to meet his British and EU counterparts at a meeting in China in two weeks.

Both Australia and New Zealand are in the preparatory stages to launch free trade agreements with the EU but doing so separately and at different paces.

Until the vote, the EU was on track to get approval this year from its members, begin talks next year and have them finished by 2019.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11664407

 

[Azam]

Was the EU's economy/stability doing well to begin with? I realize the current situation over there due to the leave result is alarming but at the same time doesn't it seem inevitable that its all gonna come tumbling down anyways? why prolong it?

Personally I voted remain because even though I have reservations about the way the EU operates, migration and a whole load of other domestic/EU issues - I felt that it was better to try to reform the European Union than leave it. Also I think that many people who voted in the Remain camp do have a lot of issues that many of the leave voters had - many remain/leave voters have similar grievances regarding the EU - the only difference being that those on the remain side thought the EU could be reformed within - (whereas those in the Leave thought it's better to get out than reform) & also the uncertainty about the economic impact as well as the impacts of leaving the single market & the free trade tariffs that those within the EU enjoy - as well as British businesses - big & small.


That said the EU's economic stability was not going particularly well imho. The policies I think and the unrealistic ideals of the EU were part of the problem. I mean the divide between the South of Europe and the North are greater than ever - politically, economically and even in terms of stability - and this is what is partially driving EU migration to the UK and placing huge strains on public services as well as housing, communities & a whole load of stuff. When you have huge unemployment rates especially among the youth in Southern Europe caused in part by austerity measures - many of those who are unemployed are struggling to get by whereas those who are able are moving to parts of the EU like the UK - that are economically stronger to find jobs. The result is that you have many graduates in the UK leaving university in debt and unable to get jobs - it's even worse for those that do apprenticeships or vocational courses because migrants generally move into those areas.

Not to mention the huge political issues facing the way the EU is run. You have a collection of largely un-elected bureaucrats that don't represent the views of the people they are meant to work on behalf of - not to mention a huge ideological drive to make the EU more centralized and in effect taking away democratic powers away from people & national governments etc etc - there are many issues.

The greatest issue is the common currency of the Euro. Many countries in the EU wouldn't be in nearly half the mess they are in now if they had all stayed with their national currencies like the UK did.

The EU has made many mistakes - this referendum and the result of the UK leaving the EU wouldn't have happened had the EU not been mismanaged politically and had the foresight to accept mistakes made & attempting to rectify them. Had the EU been democratic & actually been in touch with reality this could have all been avoided. Juncker and the other assholes in charge should all be fired.


The falling currency is not necessarily a bad thing either - it means british businesses can be much more competitive in the export market - makes british goods much more competitively priced.


My feeling is that the UK if it leaves will most likely be able to arrange a unique bilateral free trade agreement with the EU - against the wishes of those within the EU - I think national governments like Merkel's & Hollande will most likely apply pressure to keep mutually beneficial trade arrangements with the UK.

Alternatively I feel as though the other thing that could happen is that Merkel & Co - want the UK to take it's time so that there is a greater possibility of another referendum mandate that will go in Remains favour. Very undemocratic if this does happen - personally I will be against such a thing and may do more harm to the UK politically than the actually referendum result.

 

[Azam]

I'm a bit torn on the issue of face veils but ultimately I think they are garbage and only seek to suppress women. I don't think it's possible to have a society where women are equal to men in the eyes of the law and also have women covered up in a niqab/burka. It's a symbol of oppression and inequality.

I'm Muslim - I think they aren't necessary and personally wouldn't want my wife to wear one (although it would be her choice not mine). They aren't necessary and there is no religious basis for it either.

Many Muslim women that do wear - do so out of choice. Even within the Muslim community - the burqa is thought of as an extreme tbh. That's why so few Muslim women wear it - when we're talking about the Burqa - we're talking about a very small number of people - maybe ten thousand.

That said I don't think it's societies place to tell specific women what they can or cannot wear. That said I think there should be requirements in public places where it should be mandatory that they be removed - given the social climate & security issues. But I think this may cause further issues - as I'd imagine many would just chose not to enter public places which actually does suppress them from public life - whereas at least now they do participate to a degree.

Personally I don't view it as oppressive - many women that wear it don't either. I just think why on earth would you want to cut yourself out of reality by putting cloth between you and your vision of reality. I just honestly find it stupid more than anything else. But to each their own.

 

[Arkain2K]

United States - United Kingdom alliance seen outweighing Brexit trade concerns
WASHINGTON | By David Lawder
June 27, 2016

The United States looks unlikely to follow through on a threat to relegate Britain to second-class trade status once its ally leaves the European Union, as it weighs the potential costs of undermining the countries' close diplomatic and military ties.

President Barack Obama had warned ahead of Thursday's "Brexit" referendum that Britain would move to the back of the queue on U.S. trade priorities if it voted to leave the bloc, well behind a much-larger U.S.-European trade deal now under negotiation.

But in the face of a severe financial market reaction to the vote to leave the EU, U.S. officials are making more supportive statements about the strength of the U.S.-U.K. "special relationship" and stressing that they are still analyzing the impact of "Brexit" on the European trade talks.

Security and trade experts said Washington is wary of adding to Britain's economic pain, which could hamper its ability to maintain its commitments to NATO and U.S.-led efforts to fight terrorism. A poorer Britain may not be able to afford its pledge to spend 2 percent of its GDP on defense at a time of increasing threats from Russia, nor a new fleet of nuclear submarines that form a key part of the West's nuclear missile deterrent.

"The U.K. could become smaller and weaker. If that happens, then you wonder if they can sustain the defense spending and the effort to be globally oriented," Nicholas Burns, a former U.S. ambassador to NATO, told reporters after an Atlantic Council event on Monday.

"That's what we worry about with Britain leaving. Britain was the strongest American partner inside the EU."

Some trade experts also said that a deal on the U.S.-European Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) was unlikely for years now without Britain at the table, which could open an opportunity for a separate deal with the U.K.

"The 'back of the queue' statement will be forgotten by the next administration, if not sooner," said Gary Hufbauer, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute of International Economics. "In my view, TTIP is either dormant or dead in the wake of Brexit."

It may be easier for Washington to negotiate a bilateral trade deal with Britain, a "like-minded" country that is more open to free trade than the 27 remaining EU members, said Miriam Sapiro, a former deputy U.S. Trade Representative.

"A U.S.-UK agreement could create leverage to get TTIP done more quickly, and it's an easier agreement to do," Sapiro said.

CALMING WORDS

As U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew and Secretary of State John Kerry sought to contain the damage from Brexit in public appearances on Monday, they both refrained from repeating Obama's trade warning.

Lew told CNBC that a trade deal with the EU remains a priority because it has been under negotiation for several years, but he did not rule out the possibility of separate talks with Britain once Europe and the UK agree on separation terms.

"Any separate negotiation with the U.K. will have to take a course in part determined by what happens between the U.K. and EU," Lew said. "So it is, I think, very much in the interest of all parties to maintain open trade relationships. The U.S. and the UK have a special, deep relationship that will continue."

White House spokesman Eric Schultz added that the administration was "working through" how the "Brexit" vote would affect the TTIP talks.

"If we have to start negotiating separately with the United Kingdom, that's going to start from a different vantage point, especially because we've had years of progress."

Schultz said that U.S.-U.K. economic ties "remain strong and vibrant as they have been, and the special relationship had not suffered because of the vote.

The more conciliatory tone "is about stabilizing the economic situation," said Heather Conley, European Program Director at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank. She added that since markets were "already punishing" Britain for the vote, there was no need for the Obama administration to pile on.

RECESSION THREATENS DEFENSE BUDGET

Goldman Sachs' top economists told clients that they expect Britain to enter a recession within the next year as investment plans shrink and credit tightens in the vote's wake.

Both Standard and Poor's and Fitch Ratings cut their credit ratings for Britain, anticipating damage to its economy from Brexit, while the shares of British homebuilders have tumbled as much as 40 percent in two days.

The British government is scheduled to make a final decision this year on replacing the four aging submarines that carry its Trident intercontinental nuclear ballistic missiles, a program that could cost as much as $167 billion.

British Defense Minister Michael Fallon told parliament on Monday that the government maintains its commitment to the BAE Systems program and hoped a vote on the decision would be held “shortly.”

In another twist, Britain's submarine fleet is based at Faslane on Scotland's west coast. Should Brexit prompt Scotland to make a second, successful bid for independence, Britain may be faced with having to spend billions to build a new submarine base.

Britain's departure from the EU -- which could take several years to negotiate -- risks undermining Europe's new defense strategy, days before NATO and EU governments sign a landmark pact to confront a range of threats from Russia to the Mediterranean, officials say.

NATO allies will be looking for reassurances on Britain's commitments to the group at a summit in Warsaw in July.

"Things are going to be a lot harder," said a senior Western defense official involved in EU-NATO cooperation. "NATO planned on linking itself up to a stronger European Union, not being the default option for a weakened, divided bloc."

Another U.S. official played down any near-term security concerns saying: "I don’t think the sky is falling here."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-usa-alliance-analysis-idUSKCN0ZE04Q

 

[Dalarna3]

European SUPERSTATE to be unveiled: EU nations 'to be morphed into one' post-Brexit

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit

Better source?

 

[in the]

I'm Muslim - I think they aren't necessary and personally wouldn't want my wife to wear one (although it would be her choice not mine). They aren't necessary and there is no religious basis for it either.

Many Muslim women that do wear - do so out of choice. Even within the Muslim community - the burqa is thought of as an extreme tbh. That's why so few Muslim women wear it - when we're talking about the Burqa - we're talking about a very small number of people - maybe ten thousand.

That said I don't think it's societies place to tell specific women what they can or cannot wear. That said I think there should be requirements in public places where it should be mandatory that they be removed - given the social climate & security issues. But I think this may cause further issues - as I'd imagine many would just chose not to enter public places which actually does suppress them from public life - whereas at least now they do participate to a degree.

Personally I don't view it as oppressive - many women that wear it don't either. I just think why on earth would you want to cut yourself out of reality by putting cloth between you and your vision of reality. I just honestly find it stupid more than anything else. But to each their own.

I used to be in favor of letting women choose, but in the Muslim countries where the veiling was once banned in some form or fashion (namely Turkey and Tunisia), when those bans have been lifted, there has been a backsliding that inevitably follows.

Whether the veil/hair covering is obligatory is gray area from what I can tell. At the very least, it seems to be suggested but not necessarily compulsory. Also, there's major social pressures for women to wear them in many parts of the world. Muslim women living in the Indian subcontinent region have acid thrown on their faces for not covering themselves. I don't want to say it's this way across the entire Muslim world, that's not true. But it's also true that in many areas it becomes a social issue, one where it becomes a sign of true faith and an overt display to one's commitment to Islam whether or not it's compulsory. And everything about the veil screams inferiority and oppression to me.

Vanguard made an interesting documentary on this called Scarf Wars, you can find it online if you know how to search for it.

All I can say is, I hope your views on the scarf/veils wins out. I can handle cloth covering a woman's hair but to cover her face is incredibly oppressive and just stupid to me.

We should fight for equality of sexes and start our own line of male burqas and niqabs.

 

[BruceLeeOnTRT]

Personally I voted remain because even though I have reservations about the way the EU operates, migration and a whole load of other domestic/EU issues - I felt that it was better to try to reform the European Union than leave it. Also I think that many people who voted in the Remain camp do have a lot of issues that many of the leave voters had - many remain/leave voters have similar grievances regarding the EU - the only difference being that those on the remain side thought the EU could be reformed within - (whereas those in the Leave thought it's better to get out than reform) & also the uncertainty about the economic impact as well as the impacts of leaving the single market & the free trade tariffs that those within the EU enjoy - as well as British businesses - big & small.


That said the EU's economic stability was not going particularly well imho. The policies I think and the unrealistic ideals of the EU were part of the problem. I mean the divide between the South of Europe and the North are greater than ever - politically, economically and even in terms of stability - and this is what is partially driving EU migration to the UK and placing huge strains on public services as well as housing, communities & a whole load of stuff. When you have huge unemployment rates especially among the youth in Southern Europe caused in part by austerity measures - many of those who are unemployed are struggling to get by whereas those who are able are moving to parts of the EU like the UK - that are economically stronger to find jobs. The result is that you have many graduates in the UK leaving university in debt and unable to get jobs - it's even worse for those that do apprenticeships or vocational courses because migrants generally move into those areas.

Not to mention the huge political issues facing the way the EU is run. You have a collection of largely un-elected bureaucrats that don't represent the views of the people they are meant to work on behalf of - not to mention a huge ideological drive to make the EU more centralized and in effect taking away democratic powers away from people & national governments etc etc - there are many issues.

The greatest issue is the common currency of the Euro. Many countries in the EU wouldn't be in nearly half the mess they are in now if they had all stayed with their national currencies like the UK did.

The EU has made many mistakes - this referendum and the result of the UK leaving the EU wouldn't have happened had the EU not been mismanaged politically and had the foresight to accept mistakes made & attempting to rectify them. Had the EU been democratic & actually been in touch with reality this could have all been avoided. Juncker and the other assholes in charge should all be fired.


The falling currency is not necessarily a bad thing either - it means british businesses can be much more competitive in the export market - makes british goods much more competitively priced.


My feeling is that the UK if it leaves will most likely be able to arrange a unique bilateral free trade agreement with the EU - against the wishes of those within the EU - I think national governments like Merkel's & Hollande will most likely apply pressure to keep mutually beneficial trade arrangements with the UK.

Alternatively I feel as though the other thing that could happen is that Merkel & Co - want the UK to take it's time so that there is a greater possibility of another referendum mandate that will go in Remains favour. Very undemocratic if this does happen - personally I will be against such a thing and may do more harm to the UK politically than the actually referendum result.

I really enjoyed reading this post. You are correct on all points, especially about UK being smart for keeping its currency. The Hungarians did the same, and it will save them when the EU begins to split up further and Germany switches back to the deutsch mark.

Personally speaking, i don't know if you guys could have changed it from within. Once you fully joined, and signed away BOE holdings, control of your military, etc, it would have been game over. You maintain more control by keeping yourself as a separate trading entity that leverages its NATO participation IMO.

 

[in the]

United States - United Kingdom alliance seen outweighing Brexit trade concerns
WASHINGTON | By David Lawder
June 27, 2016

The United States looks unlikely to follow through on a threat to relegate Britain to second-class trade status once its ally leaves the European Union, as it weighs the potential costs of undermining the countries' close diplomatic and military ties.



CALMING WORDS



RECESSION THREATENS DEFENSE BUDGET



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-usa-alliance-analysis-idUSKCN0ZE04Q

Obama doesn't always stick to his line in the sands.

 

[in the]

I posted this in the last thread and it got no reaction. I'm going to post it again so hopefully people will watch it.

Everyone seems to forget the turmoil that the financial crisis caused the EU in the past decade. It's possible the UK left before the time bomb exploded.

 

[IDL]

Personally I voted remain because even though I have reservations about the way the EU operates, migration and a whole load of other domestic/EU issues - I felt that it was better to try to reform the European Union than leave it. Also I think that many people who voted in the Remain camp do have a lot of issues that many of the leave voters had - many remain/leave voters have similar grievances regarding the EU - the only difference being that those on the remain side thought the EU could be reformed within - (whereas those in the Leave thought it's better to get out than reform) & also the uncertainty about the economic impact as well as the impacts of leaving the single market & the free trade tariffs that those within the EU enjoy - as well as British businesses - big & small.


That said the EU's economic stability was not going particularly well imho. The policies I think and the unrealistic ideals of the EU were part of the problem. I mean the divide between the South of Europe and the North are greater than ever - politically, economically and even in terms of stability - and this is what is partially driving EU migration to the UK and placing huge strains on public services as well as housing, communities & a whole load of stuff. When you have huge unemployment rates especially among the youth in Southern Europe caused in part by austerity measures - many of those who are unemployed are struggling to get by whereas those who are able are moving to parts of the EU like the UK - that are economically stronger to find jobs. The result is that you have many graduates in the UK leaving university in debt and unable to get jobs - it's even worse for those that do apprenticeships or vocational courses because migrants generally move into those areas.

Not to mention the huge political issues facing the way the EU is run. You have a collection of largely un-elected bureaucrats that don't represent the views of the people they are meant to work on behalf of - not to mention a huge ideological drive to make the EU more centralized and in effect taking away democratic powers away from people & national governments etc etc - there are many issues.

The greatest issue is the common currency of the Euro. Many countries in the EU wouldn't be in nearly half the mess they are in now if they had all stayed with their national currencies like the UK did.

The EU has made many mistakes - this referendum and the result of the UK leaving the EU wouldn't have happened had the EU not been mismanaged politically and had the foresight to accept mistakes made & attempting to rectify them. Had the EU been democratic & actually been in touch with reality this could have all been avoided. Juncker and the other assholes in charge should all be fired.


The falling currency is not necessarily a bad thing either - it means british businesses can be much more competitive in the export market - makes british goods much more competitively priced.


My feeling is that the UK if it leaves will most likely be able to arrange a unique bilateral free trade agreement with the EU - against the wishes of those within the EU - I think national governments like Merkel's & Hollande will most likely apply pressure to keep mutually beneficial trade arrangements with the UK.

Alternatively I feel as though the other thing that could happen is that Merkel & Co - want the UK to take it's time so that there is a greater possibility of another referendum mandate that will go in Remains favour. Very undemocratic if this does happen - personally I will be against such a thing and may do more harm to the UK politically than the actually referendum result.

You might get a kick out the closing statement from this documentary made in 2004 that took a critical view of the EU.

He says just what you are saying about leaving and renegotiating a trade agreement. That it was 12 years ago makes it all the more entertaining.

(the video is set to skip to his statement)

 

[Arkain2K]

Obama doesn't always stick to his line in the sands.

Realistically speaking, we all knew Obama's involvement in a post-Brexit USA-UK trade deal is zero.

That's in all likelihood the next President's job.

 

[Concrete Whale]

^^^^

Uh - are you forgetting that the British Commonwealth was also part of the Allies?

I can understand the immigration issue but what's wrong with people wearing clothes that are different?

 

[Cirris]

Obama doesn't always stick to his line in the sands.

 

[8KresniK8]

Better source?

How about the document? Boom, here you go.

http://static.presspublica.pl/red/rp/pdf/DokumentUE.pdf

 

[Falsedawn]

When the party that asked to negotiate the deal is the party pushing to postpone the negotiations, that's not a good sign for their ability to successfully negotiate a good deal.

Indicative that there is no plan. They didn't expect it to pass, they didn't expect Scotland to get pissed, and they didn't expect the markets to go tits up.

The more I see, the more I think the UK will find some way to keep their asses situated. Call the EU a bunch of assholes, blame the left, and then quietly negotiate a deal behind the scenes that keeps them in the EU with light changes. Proclaim it a new age of British trailblazing ala WW2 to appease the nationalists.

 

[Teen Wolf]

 

[in the]

Absolutely zero reason for that to happen. Those guys need their asses kicked.

It's one thing to want to protect your country and heritage, but when you start abusing people at the ground level, you've lost any high ground you might have had.

This almost reminds me of the videos coming out of Russia about ten years ago that showed white Russians beating the shit out of anyone who looked different. I hope it doesn't get that bad in the UK.

 

[TheStruggle]

Nigel Farage absolutely DESTROYS the EU here. I dunno how you can still be on REMAINs side after this

 

[HereticBD]

Market has already started to bounce back. How CNN reported it:

"This is truly surprising. Enough of that though. Let's talk about the last four days, when the market tanked like everyone knew it would, and pretend that we're still right about Brexit being the worst thing ever."