BREXIT Discussion, v4.0: The Back-Pedaling

You put a lot of effort into your threads, Arkain. You deserve more likes.

Thanks, Brah!!

Your OPs are always really informative and well organised.
Bravo

Thanks Duffman!

You're welcomed, folks! :cool:

Now that I'm back from my vacation, let's continue to have a productive discussion once again! :)

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To WR Mods @Lead Salad, @Zankou, @Madmick: please do us all a favor and DO NOT merge other shitty copy-cat threads into our ongoing discussion, something that happened multiple times over the course of Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3.

If there is a duplicated/rehashed topic intentionally made in the WR with inferior contents that offers absolutely no added value to the discussion whatsoever, there's no reason why you shouldn't send it straight to the Wasteland immediately, rather than allowing the garbage to build up and fester for days, before one of your esteemed colleagues decide to "contribute" to our organized discussion table here by dumping the aforementioned garbage all over it.

Thank you for your considerations.
 
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On topic, damn are world exchanges getting hammered.
Some post divorce regret from some Leavers.
 
On topic, damn are world exchanges getting hammered.
Some post divorce regret from some Leavers.

Its a risk for sure. Short term losses were to be expected. But if EU nations continue to go backwards economically, eventually others are going to pull out, and the UK having a head start might make them the new European economic powerhouse if they're established and the rest of Europe is scrambling.

Speaking of which, how much do you think Switzerland is loving this shit? People made jokes about their neutrality. Now being so militarily and economically stable is going to give them the last laugh
 
U.S., European stocks stumble again amid Brexit vote fallout
By Renae Merle and Simon Denyer
June 27, 2016

NEW YORK — U.S. and European stock markets stumbled again Monday as investors grappled with the fallout from Britain’s historic vote to leave the European Union.

In the United States, the Dow Jones industrial average and Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index fell more than 2 percent before recovering some ground. The tech-heavy Nasdaq fell 2.4 percent. London’s main FTSE 100 index was off 2.6 percent and Germany’s DAX more than 3 percent.

Those losses followed dramatic sell-offs Friday, when the news of Britain’s pending exit — popularly known as Brexit — from the economic and political bloc rocked global markets.

Adding to investor concerns on Monday, S&P Global Ratings lowered its credit rating for Britain to “AA” from “AAA” and said that “the outlook on the long-term rating is negative.”

“In our opinion, [Brexit] is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, stable and effective policy framework in the U.K.,” according to the S&P report. Fitch Ratings followed with its own downgrade and revised down its forecast for the growth of Britain’s gross domestic product through 2018.

Global markets have lost more than $3 trillion in value since Friday. Losses on the S&P 500 over the past two trading days were about $970 billion.

For investors nervous about the uncertainty sparked by Brexit and whether other European countries could stage their own exits, Monday’s turbulence was a discouraging sign that stocks may be entering another prolonged period of volatility. After the worst start to a year on record, stocks spent months fighting their way back into positive territory. Sell-offs in recent days have pushed the Dow, which tracks 30 blue-chip stocks, and the S&P 500, a broader view of the market, back into negative territory for 2016.

After losing 1.5 percent Monday, or 260.51 points, the Dow is now off 1.6 percent for the year. After tumbling 1.8 percent or 36.87 points, the S&P is now off more than 2 percent for the year.

Another powerful trigger of investor anxiety is the steep drop in the British pound. After suffering its biggest one-day drop in history on Friday, the pound fell an additional 3.4 percent Monday. It is now foundering at a 31-year low against the dollar.

“That is a pretty massive move in a currency. We don’t see moves like that in a year, and here we are seeing it in a couple of days,” said Art Hogan, chief market strategist for Memphis-based Wunderlich, an investment firm.

The declining value of the pound is rippling across the globe. It has pushed the value of the dollar higher, making U.S. exports more expensive and, therefore, less competitive. Meanwhile, China is fixing its currency at a lower rate to stay competitive.

Concerns about whether Britain could land in a recession are reverberating through the banking sector. A sluggish British economy could translate into more bank loans going bad and companies holding back on expansion plans, analysts said.

Large U.S. banks with global operations may also suffer, they said. London has long served as the financial gateway into the 28-member E.U. but is at risk of losing that status, and many U.S. banks are grappling with how to adjust to the new reality.

Shares in Barclays and the Royal Bank of Scotland at close Monday were down 21 percent and around 14 percent, respectively, on the New York Stock Exchange. RBS fell a staggering 27.5 percent Friday. In the United States, shares of Bank of America fell 6 percent, while Citigroup and JPMorgan Chase were down 5 percent and 3 percent respectively.

“Banks are generally the best proxy for an economy,” said Firdaus Ibrahim, a banking-industry analyst for S&P Global Market Intelligence. And all of this means “the banks’ profitability will be hit hard, in our view,” Ibrahim said.

Concerns about European banks were particularly apparent in Italy, where, according to multiple media reports, government officials were weighing the injection of billions into the banking system in the wake of the Brexit vote. Italy’s banks have already endured a high level of bad loans and sluggish economic growth. Brexit could force the country’s central bank to take action to stabilize the sector, analysts said.

The markets were relatively calmer in Asia, where policymakers said they stood ready to act if the markets remained unsettled. Japan’s Nikkei 225 stock index gained about 2.4 percent after falling nearly 8 percent on Friday.

Financial leaders in Europe and the United States, meanwhile, rushed to assure investors on Monday.

“There is no sense of a financial crisis developing,” U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew said in an interview with CNBC on Monday. “Obviously this is a change in policy that has implications which change the decisions investors make, so I’m not saying there’s not an impact in the markets.”

Britain faces months of political uncertainty after Prime Minister David Cameron, who called the referendum but campaigned for Britain to stay in the E.U., pledged to step down by early September. Opposition lawmakers from the Labour Party attempted to unseat their leader, Jeremy Corbyn, citing his failure to mount an effective campaign for Britain to stay in the E.U., while more than 3 million Britons signed a petition calling for a second referendum.

Adding to the uncertainty, an opinion poll showed a strong majority of Scots want to break with Britain, while Nicola Sturgeon, leader of the Scottish National Party, even raised the possibility of blocking the legislation needed for Britain to exit the E.U.

But the economic uncertainty could drag on for years, with Cameron’s successor facing complex negotiations to leave the world’s largest trading bloc and forge new trade deals around the world.

“A lot of issues in the U.K. are not going to be resolved anytime soon,” said Chris Weston, chief markets strategist at IG in Melbourne, Australia. “For sterling to rally, you want to see some certainty. Otherwise, every rally is just an opportunity to sell.”

Globally, the recovery from the 2008 financial crisis has been sluggish and fragile. Recurring crises over government debt in Europe, a collapse in oil prices and rising concern about China’s slowdown have buffeted financial markets, investment and economic activity. Prolonged uncertainty over Brexit is not going to help.

It is important that British and European policymakers, as well as multilateral institutions, work together in coming days to limit uncertainty, said International Monetary Fund Managing Director Christine Lagarde.

“At this point in time, policymakers both in the U.K. and in Europe are holding that level of uncertainty in their hands,” she said at the Aspen Ideas Festival in Colorado, Bloomberg reported. “How they come out in the next few days is going to really drive the direction in which risk will go.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d4712a-3c2a-11e6-a66f-aa6c1883b6b1_story.html
 
Could the UK hold another Brexit vote?
By Tim Hume, CNN
Mon June 27, 2016

London (CNN) The UK made a historic decision to leave the European Union on Thursday -- but has so far hesitated on pulling the trigger to go.

Now questions are being asked as to whether it has to happen. Here are the scenarios in the conversation.

Can the referendum be ignored?

The referendum itself was advisory, rather than legally binding, and nothing was legally set in motion as a result of the vote.

Theoretically, the government could ignore the result, although doing so would presumably prompt an angry reaction from the 52% of Brits who voted to leave.

"The referendum doesn't itself trigger Brexit," said Kenneth Armstrong, professor of European law at the University of Cambridge. "It still requires the decision of a government."

Specifically, a Brexit requires the UK government to invoke Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon, the EU legislation governing a potential breakup.

During the referendum campaign, Prime Minister David Cameron, who led the Remain campaign, repeatedly said that a Leave victory would automatically result in the triggering of Article 50. But in the wake of the shocking Leave victory, he has said he plans to resign in October and will leave it to his successor to invoke the article -- raising hopes among some that it might not happen.

Armstrong said that while the chances of Article 50 not being triggered as a result of the referendum were "very slim," the decision ultimately remains a political one.

"With the internal politics of the both the main political parties in such turmoil, it's so hard to know what the position of the UK government is going to be," he said.

Armstrong said the vote was "an instruction from the British people to withdraw from the European Union" and as such, "cannot be ignored."
However, the longer the decision to invoke Article 50 is delayed, the more opportunity there is for politics to intervene, he said.
For his part, Cameron told the House of Commons on Monday that the referendum result "must be accepted and the process of implementing the decision in the best possible way must now begin."

Will there be a second referendum?

Many disappointed Remain voters have focused their hopes on calls for another vote, with more than 3.5 million people signing an online petition calling for a do-over, and a Labour MP publicly calling for a second referendum to be held.

There is no legal obstacle to a second referendum being held, analysts say.

However holding a second, divisive referendum simply because some people were not happy with the outcome is unlikely to prove a palatable solution, said Armstrong.

"I don't believe that this petition for a second referendum in and of itself can halt Brexit," he said.

There's one scenario under which the issue could be revisited at the ballot box: A general election could serve as a proxy second referendum on the issue.

"It would need to be a general election in 3-4 months' time that indicated a changed politics, and maybe then you'd be right to go back and check with the people that this is what we really wanted," said Armstrong.

Will there be a general election?

But Cameron's announcement of his intent to step aside does not automatically mean a general election will be held.

In 2007, Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair as Prime Minister after Blair's resignation, without a public vote.

But the current crisis engulfing British politics is uncharted territory, and with so much at stake at a critical juncture in UK history, a consensus might emerge that a general election was needed to give a mandate to the new leaders, said Armstrong.

John Curtice, a political scientist at the University of Strathclyde, said a general election was most likely to occur as a result of the government of Cameron's eventual successor losing a vote of confidence.

Whether any potential snap election becomes a proxy on the Brexit issue depends largely on how much the Labour Party is willing to make it one.
"Given how many Labour voters voted to leave, this may just be a wound that the Labour Party will not want to rub," said Curtice.

Can Scotland or Northern Ireland block a Brexit?

In Scotland -- where 62% of voters cast a ballot to remain in the EU -- Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has suggested the devolved Scottish Parliament could attempt to veto a Brexit.

She also said Scotland could pursue a second referendum on leaving the United Kingdom in the event of a Brexit. Scots voted by 55.3% to stay in the UK at an earlier referendum in 2014.

Similarly, in Northern Ireland, where 56% of voters want to remain in the EU, Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness has called for a poll on a united Ireland.

Cameron said Monday that Scotland's Parliament did not have the legal power to veto the referendum result, a position backed by Mark Elliott, professor of public law at the University of Cambridge.

As Elliott explains in a blog post, this is because the UK Parliament in Westminster is sovereign, and has not given away any of its powers to devolved legislatures like those in Scotland or Northern Ireland.

But Jo Murkens, an associate professor of law at the London School of Economics, argues that while Scotland and Northern Ireland may lack the legal power to veto a Brexit, the threat of the breakup of the UK presented a "political and moral" veto.

It is incumbent on Westminster MPs -- who were not just there to "implement the view of the people," but to "exercise political judgment" -- to block the Brexit to prevent the fracturing of the kingdom, he told CNN.

"It's not 52 percent to 48 percent -- it's 2 to 2," said Murkens. "Two nations have voted to remain and two nations have voted to leave. And if the overriding objective is to keep the United Kingdom together and intact, then MPs have a duty to read this referendum result differently and say in order to preserve the UK we will not leave the EU."

Pro-Remain MPs outnumber Leave backers in the House of Commons by about 3 to 1.

Armstrong agreed that the sentiments in Scotland and Northern Ireland could play a major role in how Britain's political class navigates its way out of the crisis.

"Once that politics starts to play out a bit more, and it becomes clear that it's not just a case of the UK withdrawing from the European Union but the UK itself falling apart, that again may crystallize minds in terms of what the future looks like," he said.

Can the EU push Britain out?

Although European leaders have expressed frustration at the UK's failure to immediately invoke Article 50, they are effectively powerless to force Britain to do so.

It is entirely up to the defecting EU member to invoke Article 50 and no one in Europe can trigger the mechanism, said Armstrong.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/27/europe/britain-brexit-inevitable/
 
Cameron heads to Brussels for summit over Brexit vote
Heather Stewart and Rowena Mason
June 27, 1016
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/davidcameron
David Cameron will travel to Brussels on Tuesday to explain to Europe’s stunned leaders why Britain has voted for Brexit, as Conservative MPs pushed to speed up the process of replacing him as prime minister.

Cameron will meet the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, and the European council president, Donald Tusk, before a working dinner with his counterparts from the 27 other member states, at which the verdict in Thursday’s historic referendum will be the only item on the agenda.

The Brussels summit comes against a background of continuing financial market turmoil, as anxious investors weigh up the economic impact of Brexit, despite the chancellor insisting on Monday morning: “Our economy is about as strong as it could be to confront the challenge our country now faces.”

The credit ratings agency Standard & Poor’s announced on Monday night that it was stripping Britain of its prized AAA credit rating, underlining the risks that may lie ahead.

The executive of the Conservative 1922 committee of backbench MPs announced that it would fast-track the process of replacing the prime minister against the backdrop of turmoil in financial markets.

Candidates hoping to succeed Cameron will be jockeying for position – with Boris Johnson and Theresa May widely seen as frontrunners – with nominations for the Conservative party leadership race set to open on Tuesday.

Cameron’s fellow EU leaders are likely to be keen to hear what Britain will demand in the forthcoming negotiations, but the prime minister is determined not to speculate about what formal relationship with the EU his successor will demand.

Instead, he will try to explain the British public’s rejection of EU membership. “He’s likely to talk about a number of factors that he thinks were issues in the campaign, and in the debate,” his spokeswoman said.

“He will want to encourage people to think about how both the UK and the EU need to work together to make the best of the decision the British people have taken.”

She added that he would not pre-empt any decision on when to invoke article 50, the formal process for withdrawal from the EU. “He will reiterate that article 50 is a matter for the next prime minister.”

Cameron announced his resignation on Friday morning, in the aftermath of the public’s vote to reject EU membership, by 52-48%.

He said he would stay on until a successor could be appointed, before the party’s annual conference in October – but under the new timetable, nominations will close on Thursday and the decision will be made by 2 September.

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Graham Brady, who chairs the executive of the 1922 committee, which met on Monday lunchtime, said a quick decision was in Britain’s best interests.

“Things are in our hands, and we are moving as quickly as possible,” said Brady. “We think that the party and the country want certainty.”

Their recommendation needs to be approved by the board of the Conservative party, which meets on Tuesday, and the full 1922 committee on Wednesday.

Brady added that if a new prime minister presses ahead with the crucial renegotiations, they could then call a general election to allow the public to give their verdict on Britain’s new relationship with the EU.

“We have a big, complicated task to accomplish,” he told Sky News. “I think it is entirely reasonable to expect that the government should embark on that, get on with that, seek to negotiate as good an outcome as we can before the people then are asked to approve or reject that in a general election.”

If there are more than two candidates for leader, Conservative MPs will hold rounds of voting, the first of which would be on 5 July, with the least popular hopeful being eliminated each time. The party’s members would then be given a choice – almost certainly – of two contenders.

Cameron held the first cabinet meeting since the referendum result on Monday, with ministers on both sides of the Brexit debate paying tribute to his premiership – and discussing how they can continue to fulfil the government’s manifesto, including on social reform, in the little time left before Cameron hands over to a new prime minister.

May, who backed the prime minister’s pro-remain stance in the referendum campaign but made few public appearances in support of the cause, hopes to be seen as a unity candidate to bridge the divide in the party. She also burnished her Eurosceptic credentials by backing a withdrawal from the European convention on human rights.

May is widely expected to announce herself as a candidate and is likely to be backed by a significant number of MPs as the “stop Boris” choice.

One of the arguments being used to tempt Tory backbenchers to support her is that there would be less need to hold a general election. This is because she was in a significant position in government when the Conservatives stood on their manifesto at the last election and would therefore be better able to argue for carrying on with the same mandate.

In contrast, Johnson was not in government then, which would put more pressure on him to seek his own mandate.

Johnson, the former London mayor, arrived with an entourage at Portcullis House on Monday after spending the weekend holed up with allies at his country home. The justice secretary, Michael Gove, who chaired Vote Leave, is expected to play a key role in Johnson’s leadership campaign.

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Earlier, Johnson had set out his thoughts about life after Brexit in his Telegraph column, claiming the UK would be able to introduce a points-based immigration system while maintaining access to the European single market – a possibility that has already been rubbished by EU diplomats as a “pipe dream”.

Some pro-remain Conservative MPs who watched Johnson arrive said they would do everything they could to stop to him taking over as leader of the party.

One MP said they had been taken aback by the level of antipathy towards Johnson after the bitter referendum campaign; and there were growing questions about whether he is the right person to lead the complex Brexit negotiations.

However, other challengers may yet emerge, including the education secretary, Nicky Morgan, Amber Rudd, the energy secretary who made a series of personal attacks on Johnson in the televised referendum debate, and the work and pensions secretary, Stephen Crabb. Liam Fox, the pro-Brexit MP from the more socially conservative wing of the party, has not ruled out running.

Crabb has been canvassing MPs about the possibility of running on a joint ticket with Sajid Javid, the business secretary, who would serve as his chancellor. Javid will face questions on his intentions on Tuesday when he hosts a meeting of business leaders to reassure them about the consequences of Brexit. Both men come from working-class backgrounds, and see themselves as an antidote to the Etonian Johnson.

Johnson sought to play down the disruption in the financial markets that had followed the public’s decision, saying sterling had been “stable”. But one Tory source ridiculed his comments, describing him as “the pound shop comical Ali of British politics”.

A Tory MP who supported the remain campaign claimed “the liars had won the day” on the referendum. But they argued that when the electorate realised they couldn’t have everything they’d been promised, they wouldn’t want “the liar in chief”.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ssels-referendum-conservative-leadership-race
 
I saw the linked part in the initial post of the thread, but after hearing the main guy try to confidently explain why it wasn't HIM that was wrong about the "saved" money from the EU going into the NHS, but was instead just a group that supported him and which is associated with and because of that there's no need to talk about it...yikes. Always great when a day after you vote for someone they tell you "their" platform wasn't real.
 
Checking into the new thread. I voted leave to at least take one small step away from the abyss.
 
Was the EU's economy/stability doing well to begin with? I realize the current situation over there due to the leave result is alarming but at the same time doesn't it seem inevitable that its all gonna come tumbling down anyways? why prolong it?
 
It's starting to sound like The Mad Cow and Hollande want to take the adversarial path to Brexit. Is this just to discourage other states from leaving the EU, or purely a negotiating tactic? Rhetorical question, as only time will tell.


Believe it or not, Merkel is quite moderate compare to some other E.U folks, who are yearning to split with the U.K as soon as possible, even before the next British Prime Minister is chosen.

Jean-Claude Juncker is particularly acting like a scorned wife right now:



Brexit not 'an amicable divorce': Juncker
Saturday, 25 June 2016
The European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker says there is no reason to wait until David Cameron is replaced in October to begin negotiating Britain's exit from the European Union.

Speaking to Germany's ARD television station, Mr Juncker added that he wants to start negotiating the UK's reformed relationship with Europe 'immediately'.

'Britons decided (on Thursday) that they want to leave the European Union, so it doesn't make any sense to wait until October to try to negotiate the terms of their departure,' he said.

'I would like to get started immediately.'

Mr Juncker said the separation was 'not an amicable divorce', adding that 'it was not exactly a tight love affair anyway'.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2016/06/25/brexit-not--an-amicable-divorce---juncker.html
 
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This is very sad. Think about how many soldiers died in those wars, so that their children and grandchildren would grow up in a Britain that was not occupied by Germans.

And now, their very descendants want to sign away their country, government powers, and bank of England to a foreign union that is spearheaded by the very people their forefathers fought. And it's not even to avoid going to war, but rather because they're afraid they'll lose some money. We've failed to parent these generations.
 
This is very sad. Think about how many soldiers died in those wars, so that their children and grandchildren would grow up in a Britain that was not occupied by Germans.

And now, their very descendants want to sign away their country, government powers, and bank of England to a foreign union that is spearheaded by the very people their forefathers fought. And it's not even to avoid going to war, but rather because they're afraid they'll lose some money. We've failed to parent these generations.
Well I know some Brits who wanted to Remain and one of the main reasons was the easiness of travel across the EU and the fact that it was easier to do business across most European countries.

I definitely understand that opinion and can sympathize with it. What I don't like are the young idiots bitching about the fact that old people actually showed up to vote. The youth outnumber the old and the youth were even stronger for remain as a whole (75% Remain) than old people were for Leave (60% leave), yet they couldn't get off their asses or phones long enough to make their votes count. They can stop bitching now, stop blaming old people. They have no one but themselves to blame.
 
When the party that asked to negotiate the deal is the party pushing to postpone the negotiations, that's not a good sign for their ability to successfully negotiate a good deal.
 
This is very sad. Think about how many soldiers died in those wars, so that their children and grandchildren would grow up in a Britain that was not occupied by Germans.

And now, their very descendants want to sign away their country, government powers, and bank of England to a foreign union that is spearheaded by the very people their forefathers fought. And it's not even to avoid going to war, but rather because they're afraid they'll lose some money. We've failed to parent these generations.

Yes thank goodness the Allies defeated Evil, Evil, Evil, Evil, Evil, Evil Hitler and saved Britain from occupation. Thanks to the Allied victory Britons are still free today hurray.
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Whitechapel.jpeg

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^^^^

Uh - are you forgetting that the British Commonwealth was also part of the Allies?

I can understand the immigration issue but what's wrong with people wearing clothes that are different?
 
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