Bret Hart was in the wrong during the screwjob

[potemkin723]

Thank God for the Montreal Screwjob, without it there will be no Attitude Era

 

[lakersfan45]

Thank God for the Montreal Screwjob, without it there will be no Attitude Era

Attitude era was well on its way already

 

[potemkin723]

Attitude era was well on its way already

Screwjob is the start of it

 

[lakersfan45]

Screwjob is the start of it

Wrong

 

[Halifax]

Bret screwed Bret. Still not 100% convinced it wasn't a work.

They swore under oath during the Owen Hart Death depositions that it was real, so its hard to imagine it is a work considering.

Too much hate and bullshit going on for it to have not been real. I firmly believe Bret took his fake life that seriously that it crushed him.

 

[Good Ole Stannis's BBQ]

They swore under oath during the Owen Hart Death depositions that it was real, so its hard to imagine it is a work considering.

Too much hate and bullshit going on for it to have not been real. I firmly believe Bret took his fake life that seriously that it crushed him.

It wouldn't have been the first time someone in the business lied under oath. Yeah as pathetic and weird as that seems like Nash said not everybody grows up in a wrestling family with a dungeon in their house.

 

[Halifax]

It wouldn't have been the first time someone in the business lied under oath. Yeah as pathetic and weird as that seems like Nash said not everybody grows up in a wrestling family with a dungeon in their house.

Lying under oath is one thing. Tearing his own family apart to maintain Kayfabe is just not realistic.

The reason it came up at all during the Owen hart Death depositions was because McMahon's lawyers were trying to blur the lines and accuse Bret of poisoning Martha's mind against Vince, since several of the other Hart kids looking for a handout sided with Vince. Basically stalling tactics since Martha Hart had an ironclad wrongful death suit against the WWE. The idea was get her exhausted enough to settle rather than letting it go to trial.

It was not a work. I have read, seen enough interviews and heard enough accounts of it to say with 100% certainty that the Hart Family is as dysfunctional as they came off and that several of them truly hate each other. Christ, Bret's ex wife included, said he needs to fucking get over it, its a fake fucking belt.

 

[Good Ole Stannis's BBQ]

Lying under oath is one thing. Tearing his own family apart to maintain Kayfabe is just not realistic.

The reason it came up at all during the Owen hart Death depositions was because McMahon's lawyers were trying to blur the lines and accuse Bret of poisoning Martha's mind against Vince, since several of the other Hart kids looking for a handout sided with Vince. Basically stalling tactics since Martha Hart had an ironclad wrongful death suit against the WWE. The idea was get her exhausted enough to settle rather than letting it go to trial.

It was not a work. I have read, seen enough interviews and heard enough accounts of it to say with 100% certainty that the Hart Family is as dysfunctional as they came off and that several of them truly hate each other. Christ, Bret's ex wife included, said he needs to fucking get over it, its a fake fucking belt.

For normal people this is true, but these are all weird carnies. I don't think we'll ever know for certain but you're more than likely right. Plenty of people here and in the business are 100% convinced it was a work. Yeah most people surely even if they take Bret's side think he needed to get over it a lot sooner.

 

[My Spot]

It's typically poor people who still think it was a shoot.

 

[gspieler]

It wouldn't have been the first time someone in the business lied under oath. Yeah as pathetic and weird as that seems like Nash said not everybody grows up in a wrestling family with a dungeon in their house.

You think his loyalty to the business would supersede his moral obligation to tell the truth at a hearing involving his brother's death?

 

[Good Ole Stannis's BBQ]

You think his loyalty to the business would supersede his moral obligation to tell the truth at a hearing involving his brother's death?

Well I'd hope not but it's possible. Like I said I think it's most likely a shoot I just wouldn't rule anything out.

 

[gspieler]

Well I'd hope not but it's possible. Like I said I think it's most likely a shoot I just wouldn't rule anything out.

Fair enough. It's just all the evidence people usually cite that it was a work, is completely circumstantial. Eg, "Vince wouldn't sell a punch", etc. But you could easily come up with equally valid argument on the other side. Eg, in a business where kayfabe died decades ago, 20 years later nobody involved has ever hinted that it might be a work(including those that would stand to profit from exposing it as a work).

 

[BenjaminRandalC]

Much like Ric Flair showing up in the WWF with the NWA/WCW title. Some didn't care for it, most of the guys who stayed at WCW certainly hated Ric for it and did not believe Ric should've done what he did. That's fine, those are opinions. The fact is, though, Flair paid for the belt (in essence) and since WCW never paid him his deposit, the belt was still his and he had every right to walk around with that belt until he was repaid.

That's the real difference isn't it? If Bret had to put a large deposit down to carry the physical belt from town to town and then McMahon said he couldn't pay his contract or give him his deposit for the belt back, then it's fair game. Flair did what anyone who put 25k (If I remember right) down to hold something would do. McMahon wanted the belt on tv, Flair tried to get his money back and was told to go fuck himself. If Bret just showed up on Nitro with the belt after refusing to job....well that's a very very different thing.
That being said, if I was in Vince's shoes I wouldn't have tried something as risky as screwing Bret in Montreal. The Grapefruits have always been there on Vince. I would have told him he was dropping the belt to Shamrock before the PPV and feel free to shoot with him (A suggestion I heard Cornett make). Shamrock vs Shawn at the PPV. Maybe have Bret try and interfere and eat the chin music and have HBK go over clean despite the interference, leaving Shawn super strong and Bret looking weak.
If Bret doesn't agree to this have Shamrock kick the shit out of him. Problem solved.

 

[Theprospect26]

I always liked Bret Hart, but he was wrong in this situation. If you're leaving the company you need to drop the belt, and shouldn't be able to dictate which town. Look what happened with ALundra Blayze (Madusa) when she went to WCW and threw the WWF women's title in the garbage live on Nitro.

I don't blame Vince for doing what needed to be done to protect his championship and his company.

 

[itooknarro2knee]

That's not really true. Fans have kind of fed that myth into bigger than it was. Mick Foley was like the only guy who didn't go to work the next day. Most of the roster was sick of Bret and Shawn bickering like little girls and just wanted to get on with their own job and not step on any egg shells. Some were probably even happy to take the opportunity to take his spot. See 9.23-10.30

Austin talks a lot more positively about Bret these days since the comments would later come back to bite him in 2002 when he became difficult to deal with. Also as regards the Undertaker Prichard said he was seen in the office waiting for Vince and it appeared he might have been guarding the place and been in on it which is different than that beating the door down account. Him being the ultimate Vince guy wouldn't surprise me at all if he took his side over his friend who is forcing his boss's hand. The undertaker champion of the boys image must continue though so who knows. Even if he did he was probably the only guy on the roster at the time in the position to speak up to Vince about it without getting canned.

Rick Rude actually also did not show up... he was on a per appearance basis for WWE then and showed up on nitro the next night.
I havent watch wwe in a few years... do they still chant you screwed bret?

I kinda find this whole this thread funny as people are bashing bret hart for doing what other top guys have all done, hogan, flair, michaels even austin have all refused to lose to guys.
I also dont have any trouble believing this was all a work... and even if someone came clean at this point... what would you believe.

Mcmahon got rid of his highest salary... Shawn Michaels was probably the next highest and he was gone in a few months... he probably had the evil mcmahon character in his head
from watching bishoff... it let bret leave strong while losing the title.

Meh who knows.

 

[Good Ole Stannis's BBQ]

Rick Rude actually also did not show up... he was on a per appearance basis for WWE then and showed up on nitro the next night.
I havent watch wwe in a few years... do they still chant you screwed bret?

I kinda find this whole this thread funny as people are bashing bret hart for doing what other top guys have all done, hogan, flair, michaels even austin have all refused to lose to guys.
I also dont have any trouble believing this was all a work... and even if someone came clean at this point... what would you believe.

Mcmahon got rid of his highest salary... Shawn Michaels was probably the next highest and he was gone in a few months... he probably had the evil mcmahon character in his head
from watching bishoff... it let bret leave strong while losing the title.

Meh who knows.

Not organically but for some reason they book an angle with it almost every year. One with his niece that he was even involved in. Sometimes in Canada heels reference it too like Owens did this week and shane McMahon got the chants. Well it's a thread about Bret and there are plenty defending him. sure they have but Bret tries to pretend he hasn't whenever he criticises hogan for it. Yeah we probably will never know.

 

[GSPSAKU]

I always liked Bret Hart, but he was wrong in this situation. If you're leaving the company you need to drop the belt, and shouldn't be able to dictate which town. Look what happened with ALundra Blayze (Madusa) when she went to WCW and threw the WWF women's title in the garbage live on Nitro.

I don't blame Vince for doing what needed to be done to protect his championship and his company.

Yea, that's the key; Bret let Vince and the WWF out of a 20 year contract and in return, Vince gave Bret reasonable creative control over the last 30 days of his contract, which meant the WWF and Bret had to both agree on any and all angles.

Also, it's already been covered the whole trashing the WWE title would never have been done. The WWF was suing WCW at the time over that incident. Bischoff has been on record stating he never even contemplated that due to the current lawsuit at the time.

 

[Theprospect26]

Yea, that's the key; Bret let Vince and the WWF out of a 20 year contract and in return, Vince gave Bret reasonable creative control over the last 30 days of his contract, which meant the WWF and Bret had to both agree on any and all angles.

Also, it's already been covered the whole trashing the WWE title would never have been done. The WWF was suing WCW at the time over that incident. Bischoff has been on record stating he never even contemplated that due to the current lawsuit at the time.

Reasonable control doesn't include holding the title hostage, basically. Also, we can say that the trashing title situation would have never happened NOW, but things were very different back then while it was happening. There was no Vince would know for sure if it wouldn't even be considered. I'm just trying to be realistic.

I'm sure he never thought his women's champion would throw his title in the trash, and i'm also sure he wouldn't think Lex Luger would show up on the first Nitro despite having a handshake agreement. I can also throw the whole Rick Rude appearing on both shows fiasco in there. You never know what can happen.

 

[GSPSAKU]

Reasonable control doesn't include holding the title hostage, basically. Also, we can say that the trashing title situation would have never happened NOW, but things were very different back then while it was happening. There was no Vince would know for sure if it wouldn't even be considered. I'm just trying to be realistic.

I'm sure he never thought his women's champion would throw his title in the trash, and i'm also sure he wouldn't think Lex Luger would show up on the first Nitro despite having a handshake agreement. I can also throw the whole Rick Rude appearing on both shows fiasco in there. You never know what can happen.

You are missing so many points in your post. Lex Luger didn't have a contract, he was free to go where ever he wanted. Same with Rick Rude. Bret had a contract. And reasonable creative control meant both sides had to agree on any and all angles. Bret didn't hold the title hostage, he was willing to lose it 'Taker, Austin, Shamrock, and even Shawn.

Again, if you watch the DVD with Bret, Shawn, and Jim Ross, all three agreed it was true that Bret was willing to drop the title to anyone but Shawn UNLESS Shawn was willing to "do the favors" to Bret first. Bret was willing to lose to Shawn even at Montreal but Bret wanted Shawn to show him he was willing to do business by losing to Bret first since Shawn admittedly said in the summer of '97 that he would never lose to Bret even if Bret was willing to lose to Shawn. The issue was more Shawn than anything else; this is the same guy who refused to lose titles clean in the ring on three separate occasions with three separate titles.

Notice how a guy like 'Taker never came up to Bret threatening to beat him up if he didn't "do business"; in fact, Undertaker was livid and went to Vince after Montreal and forced Vince out of his office (per Slaughter, Ross, Brisco and Shane McMahon) to talk to Bret and apologize. When Shawn was about to leave in '98 and there was chatter Shawn might not do business, 'Taker made sure Shawn knew he better do business

 

[Theprospect26]

You are missing so many points in your post. Lex Luger didn't have a contract, he was free to go where ever he wanted. Same with Rick Rude. Bret had a contract. And reasonable creative control meant both sides had to agree on any and all angles. Bret didn't hold the title hostage, he was willing to lose it 'Taker, Austin, Shamrock, and even Shawn.

Again, if you watch the DVD with Bret, Shawn, and Jim Ross, all three agreed it was true that Bret was willing to drop the title to anyone but Shawn UNLESS Shawn was willing to "do the favors" to Bret first. Bret was willing to lose to Shawn even at Montreal but Bret wanted Shawn to show him he was willing to do business by losing to Bret first since Shawn admittedly said in the summer of '97 that he would never lose to Bret even if Bret was willing to lose to Shawn. The issue was more Shawn than anything else; this is the same guy who refused to lose titles clean in the ring on three separate occasions with three separate titles.

Notice how a guy like 'Taker never came up to Bret threatening to beat him up if he didn't "do business"; in fact, Undertaker was livid and went to Vince after Montreal and forced Vince out of his office (per Slaughter, Ross, Brisco and Shane McMahon) to talk to Bret and apologize. When Shawn was about to leave in '98 and there was chatter Shawn might not do business, 'Taker made sure Shawn knew he better do business

Look, you're absolutely right, but i'm just trying to look at it from Vince's point of view. He felt betrayed multiple times before, and maybe was paranoid about Bret would do. I'm not saying Bret would have screwed him. I'm saying that if Vince thought it was even a possibility of happening then I don't blame him for taking matters into his own hands.

Shawn was a piece of shit, no argument there. But again, Bret was leaving the company. Would you want your top guy jobbing to him before winning the title? Forget "Doing Business". The guy was leaving the company and Shawn was staying and was the future.