Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu no Longer Effective

[Coconutwater]

LOL, well looks like someone got offended. Too bad. What are you guys the BJJ ‘gods’ or the ‘SherDog’ patrol? Don’t need a lecture from two individuals who have too high an opinion of themselves. I’m not lecturing or educating anyone. Don’t like my point of you, that’s your problem. It’s an open forum. Neither one knows shit about me so why the insults. Chill out and get a life…

Okay. I'll get a life.

Continue watching GA videos.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Boy, I can see that I’m ‘outmanned’ and ‘outgunned’ based on the last 5 posts. Not a problem, to each his own. I still think my initial post and two videos really say it all. New to the site but boy the ‘SheerDog’ and UFC mentality here is overkill on BJJ. The idea that Tae Kwon-Do, Kung Fu, Aikido, Muay Thai, and Judo are ornamental is amazing. I can see where things are going.

Anyway, Matt Hughes (my favorite fighter, but now ‘over the hill’) beat Royce Gracie in round 1 in 2006. So much for Royce and BJJ. Hughes has a wrestling background and out of 45 wins only 18 were by submission.

Here is the thing gentlemen, if you go to the ground and have more than one opponent you are going to get the ‘shit’ stomped out of you. The ground is the worst place to be against 2 or 3 assailants.

your outmanned because what your saying is quite silly. no shit knowing how to kick is good for fighting, tkd alone, specially modern olympic tkd does little to no good for MMA training....

to know how to grapple is way more important than being able to jump 10 feet on the air and throw 1212412312 air kicks... you wanna bring examples? super sage got his ass handle a few times..... sage has been doing flashy kicks since he was born...

and hughes is a hell of a fighter, most importanly, a hell of a grappler, so its quite mute whatever youre saying.

yeah the ground is the worst place to be while facing more than 1 dude, not shit sherlock, therer aint no body pulling guard in a sf, and even if you dont want to go there, is there where youlll end up most of the times if you are facing multiple opponents, specially of at least one of them has enough brains to tackle you down while his other friend is trying to punch you in the face...

 

[Phr3121]

your outmanned because what your saying is quite silly. no shit knowing how to kick is good for fighting, tkd alone, specially modern olympic tkd does little to no good for MMA training....

to know how to grapple is way more important than being able to jump 10 feet on the air and throw 1212412312 air kicks...

…thanks for your 2 cents. Seems like you are a late comer to the party and missed the earlier posts. I practice Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Tae Kwon-Do. I know the pros and cons of each. Not going to re-write what has already been posted.

 

[Phr3121]

…for those who like to ruin a good thread, please move on. Don’t like my thread move on to another one. Blah, blah, blah, (insult), blah, blah, blah. “I have 3,000 messages, and 3,000 likes, I’ve been in the forum for 5 years now, and I’m a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I’m special!”

Good for you. I don’t give 2 shits. Yeah, I hear you, Tae Kwon-Do is shit. But here is the underlining thing, are you afraid it is going to work? What if it does? Will all your years of BJJ training have been washed down the drain? I knew the title of the thread would generate controversy, that’s why I put it there. I think the videos speak for themselves. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, I practice BJJ myself. Have a good day gentlemen…

 

[lts5025]

"The Believer", one of Ryan Gosling's early movies where he is a Jewish 'White Supremacist'. Based on a true story. This scene shows how to fight back when someone hits you...

If there's any place I look for street fighting strategy, it's Ryan Gosling movies.

 

[SummerStriker]

…for those who like to ruin a good thread, please move on. Don’t like my thread move on to another one. Blah, blah, blah, (insult), blah, blah, blah. “I have 3,000 messages, and 3,000 likes, I’ve been in the forum for 5 years now, and I’m a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I’m special!”

Good for you. I don’t give 2 shits. Yeah, I hear you, Tae Kwon-Do is shit. But here is the underlining thing, are you afraid it is going to work? What if it does? Will all your years of BJJ training have been washed down the drain? I knew the title of the thread would generate controversy, that’s why I put it there. I think the videos speak for themselves. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, I practice BJJ myself. Have a good day gentlemen…

No sir. You have a good day.

 

[Codger]

Boy, I can see that I’m ‘outmanned’ and ‘outgunned’ based on the last 5 posts. Not a problem, to each his own. I still think my initial post and two videos really say it all. New to the site but boy the ‘SheerDog’ and UFC mentality here is overkill on BJJ. The idea that Tae Kwon-Do, Kung Fu, Aikido, Muay Thai, and Judo are ornamental is amazing. I can see where things are going.

Anyway, Matt Hughes (my favorite fighter, but now ‘over the hill’) beat Royce Gracie in round 1 in 2006. So much for Royce and BJJ. Hughes has a wrestling background and out of 45 wins only 18 were by submission.

Here is the thing gentlemen, if you go to the ground and have more than one opponent you are going to get the ‘shit’ stomped out of you. The ground is the worst place to be against 2 or 3 assailants.

Nobody, at any point on this forum, has ever say Muay Thai or Judo are ornamental - not even close. Everyone has great respect for those arts. People do rag on TKD but mostly the points style and mall-gym kids crap that churns out 11 year old black belts.

That sport BJJ is not a complete fighting art is constantly argued about on this forum. You're not the first person to mention it. Plenty of posters, including me, say it all the time. It isn't, for the reason you mention - way too little standup practice, no striking awareness in most sports gyms these days. But then the same can be said for some of the things you listed yourself - Judo lost much of it's street effectiveness decades ago but can be very effetive with just a bit of extra practice on striking. Aikido doesn't even spar 99% of the time and is based on Japanese sword combat from 100s of years ago and too obsessed with that heritage. And much of Kung-fu is plain nonsense. Oly style TKD is a bit silly with it being little more than timing little leg flicks for point. It's nothing like the original art when being done in that way, but a good TKDer from a gym that treats it as a fighting art will likely kick your face in. BJJ has gone the same way as these other arts only much quicker. However because the average Joe is so focussed on punching and shit at takedowns, BJJ is still very useful in a limited range of street applications. If you get into a tussle on a 1-on-1 situation BJJ is gonna be very effective indeed.

In the UFC, BJJ is still completely vital for most fighters and is not useless at all.

 

[Phr3121]

Nobody, at any point on this forum, has ever say Muay Thai or Judo are ornamental - not even close. Everyone has great respect for those arts. People do rag on TKD but mostly the points style and mall-gym kids crap that churns out 11 year old black belts.

That sport BJJ is not a complete fighting art is constantly argued about on this forum. You're not the first person to mention it. Plenty of posters, including me, say it all the time. It isn't, for the reason you mention - way too little standup practice, no striking awareness in most sports gyms these days.

Thanks ‘Codger’. Finally, someone with brains who can carry on a productive dialogue. I agree with you in some issues but not others. The focus of the initial post got lost in the middle of the insults. Sad. As I mentioned before, I noticed through this thread that there seems to be a fear from those that practice BJJ that they will be beaten by someone with different skills. The Tae Kwon-Do threat must be growing in some circles. Kung-Fu is the art Bruce Lee grew up doing prior to the creation of Jeet Kune-Do. The man was unquestionably an exceptional fighter. His speed and power when kicking or punching were unmatched. He actually had to slow his moves down for the camera. Aikido involves throws and joint locks similar to BJJ. I never said BJJ was useless, I just don’t believe it deserves all the hype that it gets. That coming from someone who is Brazilian. As mentioned before, I practice BJJ and Tae Kwon-Do. I understand the pros and cons of each. Going back to my original post, UFC fights are no longer ending on the ground. I would say now that 50% finish with the guy standing. Getting kicked or punched to the ground. Once on the ground not being conscious enough to go into BJJ or grappling. The second video showing that clearly.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

Good job, I only realized this was a troll thread on page 3.

 

[Codger]

Thanks ‘Codger’. Finally, someone with brains who can carry on a productive dialogue. I agree with you in some issues but not others. The focus of the initial post got lost in the middle of the insults. Sad. As I mentioned before, I noticed through this thread that there seems to be a fear from those that practice BJJ that they will be beaten by someone with different skills. The Tae Kwon-Do threat must be growing in some circles. Kung-Fu is the art Bruce Lee grew up doing prior to the creation of Jeet Kune-Do. The man was unquestionably an exceptional fighter. His speed and power when kicking or punching were unmatched. He actually had to slow his moves down for the camera. Aikido involves throws and joint locks similar to BJJ. I never said BJJ was useless, I just don’t believe it deserves all the hype that it gets. That coming from someone who is Brazilian. As mentioned before, I practice BJJ and Tae Kwon-Do. I understand the pros and cons of each. Going back to my original post, UFC fights are no longer ending on the ground. I would say now that 50% finish with the guy standing. Getting kicked or punched to the ground. Once on the ground not being conscious enough to go into BJJ or grappling. The second video showing that clearly.

I'm never convinced by Bruce Lee arguments. I've never seen him fight so hard to say how good at actual fighting he was. And even if he was the best fighter ever, it says nothing about Kung Fu as taught in the average gym or the average person doing it. From what I have seen, stuff like Wing Chun - I'm not impressed. The fact that be created JKD suggests even he didn't think it was good enough. I've had a go at Aikido and sparred with Aikido people and I remain unconvinced it's terribly effective against someone aggressive trying to smash your face in. I'm willing to be convinced but not seen anything yet that applies to a real fight as they actually tend to go down. LIkewise I did some Japanese JuJitsu at college and it was pretty lame compared to the Judo I was also doing at the time. Too choreographed.

Clearly the UFC is no longer dominated by BJJ and pure BJJ is no longer enough to win in - it hasn't been since the early days. No argument there. But that is down to the fact that everyone knows BJJ or otther grappling now including anti-BJJ tactics for wrestlers and the like. So it's much harder to catch people and they know how to stand up safely. So the fear of being taken down is less and that allows much freer striking. Striking has evolved too so that it takes into account take downs and clinch-throws. Boxing is pretty crap in the UFC too now every fighter is multiskilled and MMA focussed but that doesn't mean boxing is useless in general or for a fight. No one art is much use. You need the whole package. To be honest, I barely watch it now because of this - way too many generic MMA fights with the indistinguisheable bearded/tattood fighters with the same skillset, rather than the interesting stylistic mismatches of the old days and Pride etc.

Prior to UFC 1 we were kind of living in a fantasy of kung fu movies and striking being the only way to fight. UFC1 broke that spell but cast another about BJJ being the ultimate. Nobody believes that anymore. Likewise wrestling with GnP had a good run but it's no longer enough. Arts like TKD or Karate which has some useful skills can contribute and win courtesy of surprise for a while because people train MMA against MMA in the same way that a BJJ blue belt can get shaken up by an aggressive newbie who doesn't play by the BJJ rules they've unconsciously absorbed, but not for long. Fighters adapt. I was sold on BJJ initially and now I'm not so much. But at 47 I'm too old, too injured and just not bothered enough to start doing Muay Thai on my non BJJ nights.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

…for those who like to ruin a good thread, please move on. Don’t like my thread move on to another one. Blah, blah, blah, (insult), blah, blah, blah. “I have 3,000 messages, and 3,000 likes, I’ve been in the forum for 5 y ears now, and I’m a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I’m special!”

Good for you. I don’t give 2 shits. Yeah, I hear you, Tae Kwon-Do is shit. But here is the underlining thing, are you afraid it is going to work? What if it does? Will all your years of BJJ training have been washed down the drain? I knew the title of the thread would generate controversy, that’s why I put it there. I think the videos speak for themselves. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, I practice BJJ myself. Have a good day gentlemen…

I was a tkd black belt by age 13...

 

[Bayonet]

…for those who like to ruin a good thread, please move on. …

This was never a good thread, dude.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Thanks ‘Codger’. Finally, someone with brains who can carry on a productive dialogue. I agree with you in some issues but not others. The focus of the initial post got lost in the middle of the insults. Sad. As I mentioned before, I noticed through this thread that there seems to be a fear from those that practice BJJ that they will be beaten by someone with different skills. The Tae Kwon-Do threat must be growing in some circles. Kung-Fu is the art Bruce Lee grew up doing prior to the creation of Jeet Kune-Do. The man was unquestionably an exceptional fighter. His speed and power when kicking or punching were unmatched. He actually had to slow his moves down for the camera. Aikido involves throws and joint locks similar to BJJ. I never said BJJ was useless, I just don’t believe it deserves all the hype that it gets. That coming from someone who is Brazilian. As mentioned before, I practice BJJ and Tae Kwon-Do. I understand the pros and cons of each. Going back to my original post, UFC fights are no longer ending on the ground. I would say now that 50% finish with the guy standing. Getting kicked or punched to the ground. Once on the ground not being conscious enough to go into BJJ or grappling. The second video showing that clearly.

Just becauE your Brazilian doesn't mean you train... What's your belt? Where do you train at?You believe in Bruce lee? Lmfao dude was a great actor and had the right philosophy he however was not a fighter...

Your videos show nothing at all... Yair rodriguez is a prospect, nothing more he has not beaten any one just yet... You wanna bring better examples use pettis or Barboza although he comes from mt...

I can brin a trillon videos of guys submitting other guys too, don't see your point...

 

[Crotalis]

The idea that Tae Kwon-Do, Kung Fu, Aikido, Muay Thai, and Judo are ornamental is amazing. I can see where things are going.

Where did you even get that from? As Codger mentioned, no one has ever said that about Muay Thai or Judo. No one even brought up any of those arts except you. What is your actual premise here? That BJJ doesn't work, or that TKD is the "new king"? Sloppy thread.

Unless this is actually a troll. In which case, well done sir.

Anyway, Matt Hughes (my favorite fighter, but now ‘over the hill’) beat Royce Gracie in round 1 in 2006. So much for Royce and BJJ. Hughes has a wrestling background and out of 45 wins only 18 were by submission.

He beat Royce with ... grappling. Not sure what your actual point is here? Royce was fighting guys who largely not only knew nothing about grappling, they knew very little about fighting in general. Which was kind of the point of those early UFC shows. To demonstrate what BJJ could do against untrained assailants. Matt Hughes hardly counts as an "untrained assailant". lol

The reason the UFC is no longer dominated by BJJ is because everyone now knows BJJ, or they know enough about general grappling to defend themselves on the ground. BJJ is no longer some magical secret.

Plus, Royce is one of the Torrence Gracies. His entire style is based on the "GJJ Street Effectiveness" you keep harping on. So are we now to assume that the GJJ you keep espousing is also useless?

Here is the thing gentlemen, if you go to the ground and have more than one opponent you are going to get the ‘shit’ stomped out of you. The ground is the worst place to be against 2 or 3 assailants.

There is no martial art in the world that can really get you through a fight with multiple opponents. You either get away quickly in that scenario, or you get your head kicked in. If it does go to the ground though, the person w/a grappling background at least has a chance to get back up ...

So like I said (and assuming you're serious becuase this feels trolly), I'm not sure what your actual point is. You need to understand that most here will take anything the Torrence Gracies say with a grain of salt. They're mostly marketers at this point and have cornered the market on the "Street vs Sport" argument as a way to promote themselves. I've seen a lot of their "self Defense" stuff ... It's .... less than realistic.

I saw a man at a GJJ academy get his purple belt based on using an overhead "karate" style block to stop an equally silly looking downward "stab" attempt with a rubber knife, knowing to back up when a guy has a ball bat, and based on knowing how to escape three different kinds of headlock .... Color me unimpressed.

As for the UFC suddenly being "dominated" by spinning techniques ... You seem to be suffering from what we call (at my gym) "the Bravo Effect". A surprisingly small sample size is all it takes for Eddie to suddenly freak out and say things like "That's it! Everyone needs to stop what they're doing and learn THAT!". The reality of it is, it takes years upon years for most people to be able to use that stuff in a real fight. Even given the number of people who have been doing TKD since child hood, you still only see a very small handful of those folks make it anywhere. Meanwhile everyone in the UFC knows how to grapple ...

 

[Phr3121]

Just becauE your Brazilian doesn't mean you train... What's your belt? Where do you train at?You believe in Bruce lee?

Blah, blah, blah, and, blah, blah, blah. Who cares where I train or what color my belt is. You're just going to respond with more shit. Gracie Academy, Purple Belt. Yeah, I believe in Bruce Lee, so what? Yeah, I know, you are special (or think you are). Don't see my point and I don't see yours.

 

[Phr3121]

This was never a good thread, dude.

Yeah, opinions vary, they are like 'ass holes', everyone has one.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Blah, blah, blah, and, blah, blah, blah. Who cares where I train or what color my belt is. You're just going to respond with more shit. Gracie Academy, Purple Belt. Yeah, I believe in Bruce Lee, so what? Yeah, I know, you are special (or think you are). Don't see my point and I don't see yours.

Blabblab bla my ass, you are tkd delusional kid Who's got a hard on for a vid some fan made about a dude who hasn't won done a damn thing in the Mma world... Naming a professional actor as some sort of real source for real fighting... When Bruce was pretending to fight Kareem Abdul, guys were actually fighting back in Brazil nhb... So keep on living in la la land...

 

[Phr3121]

The reason the UFC is no longer dominated by BJJ is because everyone now knows BJJ, or they know enough about general grappling to defend themselves on the ground. BJJ is no longer some magical secret.

Thanks, that has been my point all along.

The reality of it is, it takes years upon years for most people to be able to use that stuff in a real fight. Even given the number of people who have been doing TKD since child hood, you still only see a very small handful of those folks make it anywhere.

True, and I believe we have a fighter that is moving up to prove just that. It takes years upon years to become a good grappler also.

 

[Phr3121]

Clearly the UFC is no longer dominated by BJJ and pure BJJ is no longer enough to win in - it hasn't been since the early days. No argument there. But that is down to the fact that everyone knows BJJ or otther grappling now including anti-BJJ tactics for wrestlers and the like. So it's much harder to catch people and they know how to stand up safely. So the fear of being taken down is less and that allows much freer striking. Striking has evolved too so that it takes into account take downs and clinch-throws. No one art is much use. You need the whole package... too many generic MMA fights with the indistinguisheable bearded/tattood fighters with the same skillset, rather than the interesting stylistic mismatches of the old days and Pride etc.

Prior to UFC 1 we were kind of living in a fantasy of kung fu movies and striking being the only way to fight. UFC1 broke that spell but cast another about BJJ being the ultimate. Nobody believes that anymore. Likewise wrestling with GnP had a good run but it's no longer enough. Arts like TKD or Karate which has some useful skills can contribute... in the same way that a BJJ blue belt can get shaken up by an aggressive newbie who doesn't play by the BJJ rules they've unconsciously absorbed, but not for long. Fighters adapt. I was sold on BJJ initially and now I'm not so much.

Excellent points 'Codger', I could not agree with you more. Interesting you are not catching any 'crap' from others for what you are writing. That's the 'catch-22' of MMA, you have to be a 'jack of all trades and master of none'. It takes years of training to build muscle memory and quick reflexes. Hard to find that these days in MMA. The past and current western mentality where the only thing that matters is how fast can I get my Black Belt. That's the first thing students want to know. That's why Karate, Aikido, Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon-Do and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu had to be adapted in the U.S. if it was going to sell and survive. Americans and Europeans want to see results fast. No one has patient and time any more to learn the finer points of a specific Martial Art. What does it matter anyway. Here in the U.S. pretty much anyone can now get a license for a concealed weapon. It will all follow the same path, and end, as the Samurai.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Excellent points 'Codger', I could not agree with you more. Interesting you are not catching any 'crap' from others for what you are writing. That's the 'catch-22' of MMA, you have to be a 'jack of all trades and master of none'. It takes years of training to build muscle memory and quick reflexes. Hard to find that these days in MMA. The past and current western mentality where the only thing that matters is how fast can I get my Black Belt. That's the first thing students want to know. That's why Karate, Aikido, Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon-Do and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu had to be adapted in the U.S. if it was going to sell and survive. Americans and Europeans want to see results fast. No one has patient and time any more to learn the finer points of a specific Martial Art. What does it matter anyway. Here in the U.S. pretty much anyone can now get a license for a concealed weapon. It will all follow the same path, and end, as the Samurai.

Here in the us? I though you lived in Brazil?

I'm from Paraguay, and I got my tkd black belt at 13...

Aikido Kung fu don't have belts, and they are total bullshit when it comes to real fighting...