Bottom position defence that does not work against bigger guys

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by spacetime, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. spacetime Brown Belt

    spacetime
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,436
    Likes Received:
    359


    I have, believe it or not, grappled BJJ guys about 15-20 kg heavier, and the tips given are completely useless when you are drowning against a big guys bodyweight and strength.

    This feels very much like the unrealistic self defence of traditional martial arts.
     
    #1
  2. Seaside Comisario de transporte Platinum planet.

    Seaside
    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,524
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Location:
    3rd world
    From my experience yeah. If you are 20% better than them but they are stronger then good luck winning outside fluke leg lock. Or something. At a point assume they not novice if they are semi close to you level but stronger much stronger it difficult
     
    #2
  3. Quebec Nick Green Belt

    Quebec Nick
    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    928
    Location:
    Some Montreal suburb
    It may not work but at least you're trying something

    Working to get your arms in the right position is the first step.

    If the guy on top is bigger and doesn't try anything, you're screwed. But if he postures, tries to mount, tries to go north-south or switching side if you're in a good position you'll have a better chance of getting your guard back or getting in turtle.

    But flicking your arms around like that is also a good way to get arm barred

    For me it'S the worst place in BJJ, worst than giving my back or getting mounted. a good side control with shoulder pressure will just drain me out of energy.
     
    #3
    esteven and 2008 like this.
  4. shunyata Black Belt

    shunyata
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2010
    Messages:
    6,924
    Likes Received:
    168
    Location:
    The City of Angels
    My two cents on this

    1) never have both your hips on the mat, be on one hip do not get flattened

    2) frames motherfucker, frames can save your life.
     
    #4
    HangNail, TroldeAnsigt and Kaffe like this.
  5. Kaffe Brown Belt

    Kaffe
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    2,697
    Likes Received:
    178
    Amen to framing. When you are smaller against decent grapplers, you frame or you suffer.
     
    #5
  6. Forceof1 Blue Belt

    Forceof1
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    712
    Likes Received:
    199
    Emily Kwok and Kesting are from from the bullshido you are referencing.

    This move works- if nothing else to create some space. It may not work in isolation, meaning you may have to partner something else with it.

    And to the guy who said moving your arms will get your armbarred- sometimes you have to bait an escape. A big dude may be able to hold side control for a long time if he is not attacking. Sometimes you have to bait him into moving, anticipate the attack and escape in the space created. There are some blue belts in our gym who just laugh when I stick out my arm for an arm bar, because they know they will more often than not lose the position if they attack it.
     
    #6
  7. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,214
    Likes Received:
    1,600
    Location:
    Armbar, Iowa
    you're probably not gonna bridge a bigger person. like errbody's said, you can't get flattened out. do your best to turn into them, frame, then work on getting a knee in and recomposing guard, or getting an underhook and coming up. butterfly guard is your friend.
     
    #7
    Zankou likes this.
  8. dimmyfinster Orange Belt

    dimmyfinster
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    57
    I think the Mendes brothers have the right philosophy here. Gui has said something like "there's a lot of escapes that you can do...they're all hard...and they probably won't work. How you get good? Don't let the person pass your guard"

    The magic for the smaller person comes before the pass.
     
    #8
    esteven likes this.
  9. spacetime Brown Belt

    spacetime
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,436
    Likes Received:
    359
    It just rubbs me the wrong way to watch a cooparitive male in this clip against a helplessly outmatched female. Pretending as if this is realistic
     
    #9
  10. dimmyfinster Orange Belt

    dimmyfinster
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    57
    I'll add one more thing tat Roger Gracie points out. If you get tat frame and hip out, a good person doesn't stand there. They'll block your near hip. So you go for an underhook escape. Then they to spin over your head. Now you're worse off than before position wise and exhausted too.


    People pass your guard because they are better than you. They're fresh, you're tired. A straight up side control escape against a bigger stronger person is mostly a delusion.
     
    #10
  11. EndlessCritic Gold Belt

    EndlessCritic
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2013
    Messages:
    16,224
    Likes Received:
    5,568
    My favorite side control escape against a larger opponent: Play dead, hope they mount me, and then elbow escape.
     
    #11
  12. Zankou Muscle and Hate

    Zankou
    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    29,747
    Likes Received:
    4,109
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    The techniques shown are fine although I dislike the old school reguarding approach shown....more effective to invert or turtle your way out, once you have made some space.

    That said, if you end up getting pinned like that in the first place, almost axiomatically you are outmatched (skill and/or size) and extremely unlikely to get out.
     
    #12
    esteven likes this.
  13. spacetime Brown Belt

    spacetime
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,436
    Likes Received:
    359
    It states "escape against larger grappler." Good luck with that
     
    #13
  14. Zankou Muscle and Hate

    Zankou
    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    29,747
    Likes Received:
    4,109
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    If you have a substantial skill advantage, it can be done. Against a similar skill level, you are hosed, but not every situation involves that.
     
    #14
    mon likes this.
  15. Bubblun Brown Belt

    Bubblun
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2012
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    1,602
    Not everybody has the same ability to move their hips from the bottom, some guys are harder to control, some smaller guys are a nightmare to control.
    Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean the technique doesn't work.
     
    #15
    FatherSauce and mon like this.
  16. spacetime Brown Belt

    spacetime
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,436
    Likes Received:
    359
    Trust me, you will not. You will gass in seconds.
     
    #16
  17. yetanother Purple Belt

    yetanother
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,243
    Likes Received:
    586
    BTW Caio Terra shows how to do this style of traditional side control escape in a way that actually can work (he doesn't consider the traditionally taught version something that works).
     
    #17
  18. Zankou Muscle and Hate

    Zankou
    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    29,747
    Likes Received:
    4,109
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    What are you talking about? I have let lower belts, both much bigger and smaller, sink side control and then escaped literally hundreds of times, despite their best efforts.

    Conversely I have had smaller opponents who are more highly skilled ... e.g. Rafa Mendes while rolling at a seminar ... break free of my own side control and reverse me. Size disparity matters a great deal, but so does skill disparity.
     
    #18
  19. Ice 9 Cobra Black Belt

    Ice 9 Cobra
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    6,742
    Likes Received:
    112
    I would rather turtle and risk the back then give up mount in an attempt to escape. Disappearing under someone's mount is no fun if they are bigger than you, at least if you get your back taken their weight isn't on you.
     
    #19
  20. EGDM Blue Belt

    EGDM
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    383
    For real. Side control sucks, yes, and nearly all the escapes are low percentage all other things equal. But let's not pretend we don't see people recover guard from there dozens of times every tournament and training session.

    To take a personal example, Alliance black belt Jon Thomas. Out of dozens of attempts I've never been able to maintain side mount on him for more than 10 seconds. (I was a purple belt with 40 lbs on him at the time.) He's a goddamn wizard. I'm completely unable to replicate what he does, but it most definitely works for him.
     
    #20

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"