Bottom position defence that does not work against bigger guys

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by spacetime, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. spacetime

    spacetime Black Belt

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    I have, believe it or not, grappled BJJ guys about 15-20 kg heavier, and the tips given are completely useless when you are drowning against a big guys bodyweight and strength.

    This feels very much like the unrealistic self defence of traditional martial arts.
     
  2. Seaside

    Seaside Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores Yellow Card

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    From my experience yeah. If you are 20% better than them but they are stronger then good luck winning outside fluke leg lock. Or something. At a point assume they not novice if they are semi close to you level but stronger much stronger it difficult
     
  3. Quebec Nick

    Quebec Nick Green Belt

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    It may not work but at least you're trying something

    Working to get your arms in the right position is the first step.

    If the guy on top is bigger and doesn't try anything, you're screwed. But if he postures, tries to mount, tries to go north-south or switching side if you're in a good position you'll have a better chance of getting your guard back or getting in turtle.

    But flicking your arms around like that is also a good way to get arm barred

    For me it'S the worst place in BJJ, worst than giving my back or getting mounted. a good side control with shoulder pressure will just drain me out of energy.
     
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  4. shunyata

    shunyata Black Belt

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    My two cents on this

    1) never have both your hips on the mat, be on one hip do not get flattened

    2) frames motherfucker, frames can save your life.
     
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  5. Kaffe

    Kaffe Brown Belt

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    Amen to framing. When you are smaller against decent grapplers, you frame or you suffer.
     
  6. Forceof1

    Forceof1 Blue Belt

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    Emily Kwok and Kesting are from from the bullshido you are referencing.

    This move works- if nothing else to create some space. It may not work in isolation, meaning you may have to partner something else with it.

    And to the guy who said moving your arms will get your armbarred- sometimes you have to bait an escape. A big dude may be able to hold side control for a long time if he is not attacking. Sometimes you have to bait him into moving, anticipate the attack and escape in the space created. There are some blue belts in our gym who just laugh when I stick out my arm for an arm bar, because they know they will more often than not lose the position if they attack it.
     
  7. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    you're probably not gonna bridge a bigger person. like errbody's said, you can't get flattened out. do your best to turn into them, frame, then work on getting a knee in and recomposing guard, or getting an underhook and coming up. butterfly guard is your friend.
     
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  8. dimmyfinster

    dimmyfinster Orange Belt

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    I think the Mendes brothers have the right philosophy here. Gui has said something like "there's a lot of escapes that you can do...they're all hard...and they probably won't work. How you get good? Don't let the person pass your guard"

    The magic for the smaller person comes before the pass.
     
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  9. spacetime

    spacetime Black Belt

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    It just rubbs me the wrong way to watch a cooparitive male in this clip against a helplessly outmatched female. Pretending as if this is realistic
     
  10. dimmyfinster

    dimmyfinster Orange Belt

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    I'll add one more thing tat Roger Gracie points out. If you get tat frame and hip out, a good person doesn't stand there. They'll block your near hip. So you go for an underhook escape. Then they to spin over your head. Now you're worse off than before position wise and exhausted too.


    People pass your guard because they are better than you. They're fresh, you're tired. A straight up side control escape against a bigger stronger person is mostly a delusion.
     
  11. EndlessCritic

    EndlessCritic Gold Belt

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    My favorite side control escape against a larger opponent: Play dead, hope they mount me, and then elbow escape.
     
  12. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    The techniques shown are fine although I dislike the old school reguarding approach shown....more effective to invert or turtle your way out, once you have made some space.

    That said, if you end up getting pinned like that in the first place, almost axiomatically you are outmatched (skill and/or size) and extremely unlikely to get out.
     
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  13. spacetime

    spacetime Black Belt

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    It states "escape against larger grappler." Good luck with that
     
  14. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    If you have a substantial skill advantage, it can be done. Against a similar skill level, you are hosed, but not every situation involves that.
     
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  15. Bubblun

    Bubblun Brown Belt

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    Not everybody has the same ability to move their hips from the bottom, some guys are harder to control, some smaller guys are a nightmare to control.
    Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean the technique doesn't work.
     
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  16. spacetime

    spacetime Black Belt

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    Trust me, you will not. You will gass in seconds.
     
  17. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

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    BTW Caio Terra shows how to do this style of traditional side control escape in a way that actually can work (he doesn't consider the traditionally taught version something that works).
     
  18. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    What are you talking about? I have let lower belts, both much bigger and smaller, sink side control and then escaped literally hundreds of times, despite their best efforts.

    Conversely I have had smaller opponents who are more highly skilled ... e.g. Rafa Mendes while rolling at a seminar ... break free of my own side control and reverse me. Size disparity matters a great deal, but so does skill disparity.
     
  19. Ice 9 Cobra

    Ice 9 Cobra Black Belt

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    I would rather turtle and risk the back then give up mount in an attempt to escape. Disappearing under someone's mount is no fun if they are bigger than you, at least if you get your back taken their weight isn't on you.
     
  20. EGDM

    EGDM Blue Belt

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    For real. Side control sucks, yes, and nearly all the escapes are low percentage all other things equal. But let's not pretend we don't see people recover guard from there dozens of times every tournament and training session.

    To take a personal example, Alliance black belt Jon Thomas. Out of dozens of attempts I've never been able to maintain side mount on him for more than 10 seconds. (I was a purple belt with 40 lbs on him at the time.) He's a goddamn wizard. I'm completely unable to replicate what he does, but it most definitely works for him.
     

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