BJJ and Judo have a lot to learn from each other.

[migeru29]

Judo:

Turtle position:
Background:
This is completely anti-Jiu-Jitsu and I understand and agree. As you might already know, the turtle position sometimes is not that simple to defeat (in a quick way), in other words, in Judo if the opponent doesn't do anything (in a timely manner) against a turtle defense then the referee will restart the match standing. Judokas that are very good standing usually don't like to spend to much energy on the ground so they just turtle until the referee do something about it.
Solution:
Penalty whenever the opponent turtles and/or give more newaza (ground grappling) time, if the Judoka that turtles doesnt want newaza then he should restart the match standing via escaping and get back to his feet.

Jiu-Jitsu
Background:
While I understand that the true spirit of BJJ is the ground grappling, the fact of the matter is that in order to go to the ground you need to have a very good standing grappling as well. Of course if you are competing against opponents without grappling/wrestling experience (e.g. gracies) then you don't need an exceptional at standing grappling but nowadays it's pretty obvious how elite BJJ guys are having a very hard time to get a fight to the ground when they are fighting other good wrestlers/grapplers that decide to not go to the ground with them.
Solution:
Some people think they should penalize pulling guard, which it's pretty stupid to be honest. Pulling guard is still a technique that might or not might work. What needs to change is very clear and I know this will never happen since it's against the "spirit" of BJJ but come on think about it, if the opponent doesn't want to go to the ground why you would force him to do so? That's unnatural just like Judo restarting to standing is unnatural as well. What would be the benefit here? well, the guys that are exceptional on the ground will find out that they are having a very hard time and will need to improve their standing game, and the guys who prefer the standing game will find out that sooner or later they will end up on the ground and they will need improve their ground game as well. This will only result in much better well-rounded grapplers.

 

[FighterTwister]

I'm not much into Jiu-Jitsu anymore other than having done 4 years in Aiki Jiu-Jitsu a derivative and contemporary style of its traditional branch Tenjin Shinyo-Ryu, its based more on energy flow thats the Aiki part, back in my younger days.

But I prefer to see more of this in UFC which is semi stand-up.....



Love that awesome.

 

[asian-glow]

Judo:

Jiu-Jitsu
Background:
While I understand that the true spirit of BJJ is the ground grappling, the fact of the matter is that in order to go to the ground you need to have a very good standing grappling as well. Of course if you are competing against opponents without grappling/wrestling experience (e.g. gracies) then you don't need an exceptional at standing grappling but nowadays it's pretty obvious how elite BJJ guys are having a very hard time to get a fight to the ground when they are fighting other good wrestlers/grapplers that decide to not go to the ground with them.
Solution:
Some people think they should penalize pulling guard, which it's pretty stupid to be honest. Pulling guard is still a technique that might or not might work. What needs to change is very clear and I know this will never happen since it's against the "spirit" of BJJ but come on think about it, if the opponent doesn't want to go to the ground why you would force him to do so? That's unnatural just like Judo restarting to standing is unnatural as well. What would be the benefit here? well, the guys that are exceptional on the ground will find out that they are having a very hard time and will need to improve their standing game, and the guys who prefer the standing game will find out that sooner or later they will end up on the ground and they will need improve their ground game as well. This will only result in much better well-rounded grapplers.

My uneducated opinion about the current state of stand up in jiu jitsu is that the IBJJF (whose power has beginning to decrease) has a vested interest in keeping it distinct from wrestling and judo. I would not be surprised if one of it's goals is to cooperate with the IOC and eventually turn BJJ into an olympic sport. To avoid what was going to happen to wrestling (i.e. discontinuation) they have to not make it too much like another type of grappling art.

Interestingly I remember reading about how some judo tournaments are allowing more play on the ground to accommodate the popularity of bjj.

 

[efficientjudo]

if the opponent doesn't do anything (in a timely manner) against a turtle defence then the referee will restart the match standing

This is a simplification - in Judo, if the attacker doesn't progress in any position (the exception being a pin) then matte is called and the match is restarted standing. You could have isolated an arm for the armbar and be in the classic finishing position, but if your opponent can hold on and you can't straighten the arm, its matte. Turtle is used as a defensive position because its the furthest from being pinned you can get. The real fix is to allow more time to work, not penalising taking turtle.

opponent doesn't want to go to the ground why you would force him to do so?

BJJ doesn't force a standing grappler to go to ground - they penalise disengaging, you can stay standing over your opponent all day if you wanted. The only way to make takedowns meaningful in BJJ is to score them in a meaningful way - why spend time learning how to throw when you get the same amount of points for sweeping the opponent.

 

[Seefoo]

Some people think they should penalize pulling guard, which it's pretty stupid to be honest. Pulling guard is still a technique that might or not might work. What needs to change is very clear and I know this will never happen since it's against the "spirit" of BJJ but come on think about it, if the opponent doesn't want to go to the ground why you would force him to do so? That's unnatural just like Judo restarting to standing is unnatural as well. What would be the benefit here? well, the guys that are exceptional on the ground will find out that they are having a very hard time and will need to improve their standing game, and the guys who prefer the standing game will find out that sooner or later they will end up on the ground and they will need improve their ground game as well. This will only result in much better well-rounded grapplers.

Do you have some examples of elite bjj fighters having issues with taking folks to the ground?

As for Guard Pulling, I love it. It is simple and effective. If non-bjj grapplers have issues with it, too bad.

 

[Chungungo]

I was doing BJJ two weeks ago (now I am going back to box) and despite my 10 years of judo some guys still wait for you and take you down in any way so I guess learning go both ways but a little bit easier for BJJ practicioners, in Judo we have too many rules these days.

 

[migeru29]

Do you have some examples of elite bjj fighters having issues with taking folks to the ground?

As for Guard Pulling, I love it. It is simple and effective. If non-bjj grapplers have issues with it, too bad.

LOL there are multiple examples. But good examples whereas not even ONE takedown attempt was successful:

Shields vs Lombard, GSP and even Akiyama
Maia vs Chris, Tyron, Colby, Usman and against Rory only 1 successful out of at leas t10 attempts.

Werdum standing grappling is so bad that he needs to take down himself; look his fights against Overeem. He only submit when he's taken down.

Roger Gracie vs King Mo and Kennedy.

Yeah, no problem guard pulling. But lets be honest, there are no slamps in BJJ. That needs to change as well in order to be fair.

 

[AZ103]

Do you have some examples of elite bjj fighters having issues with taking folks to the ground?

As for Guard Pulling, I love it. It is simple and effective. If non-bjj grapplers have issues with it, too bad.

This is cult mentality crap. Would you not learn to throw hooks because a jab is good enough? Pulling guard is one method of getting to the ground. Neglecting take downs because guard pulling is your shit is retarded.

 

[migeru29]

Sorry I don't see the quotes option on my phone.

You wrote:
This is a simplification - in Judo, if the attacker doesn't progress in any position (the exception being a pin) then matte is called and the match is restarted standing.

Not true. There are multiple examples where it’s really clueless why the matte is called after good progress being made. I believe is a matter of doing it in a timely manner.

You could have isolated an arm for the armbar and be in the classic finishing position, but if your opponent can hold on and you can't straighten the arm, its matte. Turtle is used as a defensive position because its the furthest from being pinned you can get. The real fix is to allow more time to work, not penalising taking turtle.

Yes, I agree. That’s why I gave both options. Penalizing would work if we want Judokas to start using the guard a little more but that’s it, that doesn’t mean that it can be a totally defensive guard as well in order to save time. More time would be ideal but with the option of the opponent to escape and stand up if he doesn’t want to be on the ground (just like real fighting) which is something I don’t like about the Jiu-Jitsu rules.

BJJ doesn't force a standing grappler to go to ground - they penalize disengaging, you can stay standing over your opponent all day if you wanted.

So is not basically the same thing? They see a standing grappler as disengaging so that’s the whole idea that is wrong (IMO). You get penalized and overall (aside from the rules) you just don’t do that in a BJJ tournament, it’s against the spirit of the sport and probably everyone would be talking crap about you and will end up ridiculous. The whole concept needs to change there’s no other way.

The only way to make takedowns meaningful in BJJ is to score them in a meaningful way - why spend time learning how to throw when you get the same amount of points for sweeping the opponent.

I don’t believe that’s the problem. Lets have the ground experts to do an extra effort and the standing grapplers to develop an elite defense and excellent escapes and stand up again (just like real fight). I don’t agree with the points given but I accept that; you know, a sweep at the high level is not that easy to achieve.

 

[Seefoo]

This is cult mentality crap. Would you not learn to throw hooks because a jab is good enough? Pulling guard is one method of getting to the ground. Neglecting take downs because guard pulling is your shit is retarded.

I know takedowns. However, if I'm going against a superior takedown artist, then I'm pulling guard. There's no point in putting yourself in someone else's game when the bulk of your training is based elsewhere.

 

[Seefoo]

LOL there are multiple examples. But good examples whereas not even ONE takedown attempt was successful:

Shields vs Lombard, GSP and even Akiyama
Maia vs Chris, Tyron, Colby, Usman and against Rory only 1 successful out of at leas t10 attempts.

Werdum standing grappling is so bad that he needs to take down himself; look his fights against Overeem. He only submit when he's taken down.

Roger Gracie vs King Mo and Kennedy.

Yeah, no problem guard pulling. But lets be honest, there are no slamps in BJJ. That needs to change as well in order to be fair.

Oh, you're talking about MMA. I thought you were talking about elite grappling tournaments.

It should be noted that even Judo Olympian Ronda Rousey had failed takedown attempts in MMA, especially in her latter fights. Also there's guys like Tonen, Hall, Dern, and Kron who take folks down consistently in MMA.

I'm not seeing a lot of Judokas lighting the world afire on the MMA scene.

 

[efficientjudo]

Sorry I don't see the quotes option on my phone.
So is not basically the same thing? They see a standing grappler as disengaging so that’s the whole idea that is wrong (IMO). You get penalized and overall (aside from the rules) you just don’t do that in a BJJ tournament, it’s against the spirit of the sport and probably everyone would be talking crap about you and will end up ridiculous. The whole concept needs to change there’s no other way.

It isn't the same thing - to pull guard you have to have a grip i.e. engage in the fight. If someone pulls guard on you, you cannot just walk away, but there is nothing forcing you from going to ground, you can try to pass their guard from standing - I don't see this as any different from trying to take someone down. I don't have a problem with this rule - you can't just walk away in Judo either.

Lets have the ground experts to do an extra effort

You are expecting them to do it just because, they need a reason to change. If you want to change behaviours you have to incentive the 'good' or penalise the 'bad' - hence my statement of making takedowns worth something more, because I agree that you shouldn't be penalising guard pulling.

 

[Daz2300]

One simple change would be to give any takedown that puts you directly in to side, KoB, Mount or the Back without having to pass guard 3 points rather than the usual 2.

It doesn't discourage anyone from pulling guard but specifically rewards takedowns that negate the threat of your opponents guard.

 

[migeru29]

Oh, you're talking about MMA. I thought you were talking about elite grappling tournaments.

It should be noted that even Judo Olympian Ronda Rousey had failed takedown attempts in MMA, especially in her latter fights. Also there's guys like Tonen, Hall, Dern, and Kron who take folks down consistently in MMA.

I'm not seeing a lot of Judokas lighting the world afire on the MMA scene.

Of course I am! Most elite grappling tournaments rules benefit the Jiu-Jitsu grappler.

I'm not even a Ronda fan but Ronda failed takedown attempts happened during his two last fights and the attempt was made when she was already half beaten.

 

[Seefoo]

Of course I am! Most elite grappling tournaments rules benefit the Jiu-Jitsu grappler.

How exactly does elite grappling tournaments benefit a JJ grappler? Shouldn't a Judoka throw a Bjj practitioner on the mat, enter a dominant position, get tons of points, and finish with their quicker newaza? That is what you're arguing isn't it?

I'm not even a Ronda fan but Ronda failed takedown attempts happened during his two last fights and the attempt was made when she was already half beaten.

Uh, in the Holmes fight, she had her wrapped up against the cage about a minute into the first round and couldn't get her down.

Also I didn't hear you talking about the level of damage when you were bringing up those Bjj guys in MMA who couldn't get the take down. Double standard much?

 

[spiderguardman]

Shit thread, we have done this a bunch of times gah.

Bjj is a ground grappling art, putting more on focus on takedowns is just going to make it into shitty judo.
Let the judokas judoka and the jiujitsuieros jiu jitsu.
If you need to get more well rounded then cross train.

Seriously people need to stop thinking they are smarter then they are.

 

[DatCutman]

If you need to get more well rounded then cross train.

Problem is that BJJ used to be synonymous with crosstraining, and we're coming to terms with the cognitive dissonance between what we used to be and what we are now.

Oddly, only an issue in sport gi. Nogi grappling has had no problem adopting standing wrestling strategies. Probably because the Gi gives guards insane power compared to nogi (and, in my belief, makes Gi BJJ a "Guard-centric" grappling style, where the central problem is sweep or pass, as opposed to anything else).

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Judo:

Turtle position:
Background:
This is completely anti-Jiu-Jitsu and I understand and agree. As you might already know, the turtle position sometimes is not that simple to defeat (in a quick way), in other words, in Judo if the opponent doesn't do anything (in a timely manner) against a turtle defense then the referee will restart the match standing. Judokas that are very good standing usually don't like to spend to much energy on the ground so they just turtle until the referee do something about it.
Solution:
Penalty whenever the opponent turtles and/or give more newaza (ground grappling) time, if the Judoka that turtles doesnt want newaza then he should restart the match standing via escaping and get back to his feet.

Jiu-Jitsu
Background:
While I understand that the true spirit of BJJ is the ground grappling, the fact of the matter is that in order to go to the ground you need to have a very good standing grappling as well. Of course if you are competing against opponents without grappling/wrestling experience (e.g. gracies) then you don't need an exceptional at standing grappling but nowadays it's pretty obvious how elite BJJ guys are having a very hard time to get a fight to the ground when they are fighting other good wrestlers/grapplers that decide to not go to the ground with them.
Solution:
Some people think they should penalize pulling guard, which it's pretty stupid to be honest. Pulling guard is still a technique that might or not might work. What needs to change is very clear and I know this will never happen since it's against the "spirit" of BJJ but come on think about it, if the opponent doesn't want to go to the ground why you would force him to do so? That's unnatural just like Judo restarting to standing is unnatural as well. What would be the benefit here? well, the guys that are exceptional on the ground will find out that they are having a very hard time and will need to improve their standing game, and the guys who prefer the standing game will find out that sooner or later they will end up on the ground and they will need improve their ground game as well. This will only result in much better well-rounded grapplers.

My gym did a monthly exchange with a local judo school whereby their instructors would come to our gym and teach judo techniques, and our instructors would go to their gym and teach bjj techniques. After going to a couple of these classes, it seems like judo has more to learn than the other way around: Teens as assistant instructors, total ignorance of wrestling, extremely gi-dependent techniques, sporty throws taught rapidly and in isolation from how they might go in a real fight...

 

[Bluesbreaker]

My gym did a monthly exchange with a local judo school whereby their instructors would come to our gym and teach judo techniques, and our instructors would go to their gym and teach bjj techniques. After going to a couple of these classes, it seems like judo has more to learn than the other way around: Teens as assistant instructors, total ignorance of wrestling, extremely gi-dependent techniques, sporty throws taught rapidly and in isolation from how they might go in a real fight...

You may not have noticed, but judo is a sport. It's almost entirely focused on how to win judo matches and take medals home.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

You may not have noticed, but judo is a sport. It's almost entirely focused on how to win judo matches and take medals home.

Judo, and the rules can get mad irritating. Gripping rules, defensive posture, etc.

BJJ is more lax, which I like. However, I prefer stand up grappling. It's weird, like them both for different reasons.