Big John McCarthy on Till vs Wonderboy

[ultramanhyata]

This is some old-school, underground meme work. Props.

 

[ultimateriley-o]

I agree perception is different and that's why they have multiple judges. McCarthy isn't disagreeing with that at all. His perception might very well be different in who landed the cleaner and harder shots.

What is indisputable is the criteria for how they're supposed to judge fights. People often point to "octagon control" to justify the judging and McCarthy is simply saying that's not how it's supposed to be done.

We don't really know what these judges saw since they don't have to answer to anyone but the commission. I suspect they judged it more on the fact all three were from England.

Hmm. We use aggression and octagon control when striking and grappling are equal, if I’m not mistaken. One could argue, again, that when the striking was as even as it was, and in rounds mostly without grappling to speak of, we then look to aggression and octagon control, do we not.. ? Because it’s hard to argue Till wasn’t the winner in those categories.

If not, when is it that aggression and octagon control becomes a factor in the judging ?

 

[egk]

Hmm. We use aggression and octagon control when striking and grappling are equal, if I’m not mistaken. One could argue, again, that when the striking was as even as it was, and in rounds mostly without grappling to speak of, we then look to aggression and octagon control, do we not.. ? Because it’s hard to argue Till wasn’t the winner in those categories.

If not, when is it that aggression and octagon control becomes a factor in the judging ?

Octagon control is only to be used if everything else is equal and is extremely rare. Judges who rely on it are being lazy. Like McCarthy, I thought Thompson landed the cleaner shots in the first three rounds. I had him ahead 4-0 and gave Till rd 5 for the obvious knockdown. As an example of a fight where Octagon control comes in to play, I'd use Quarry vs Starnes where it was obvious Starnes didn't want to fight at all.

Where people are getting it wrong is using cage control as one of the primary aspects of scoring a round.

I personally hate the whole 10pt system. I've always said it's bad for MMA and simply promotes points fighting. One of my pet peeves is seeing someone look at the clock and then shoot for a takedown with 15 seconds or less left in a round. Things like that are obvious points fighting. I think they should judge fights as a whole. Till's knockdown was the biggest single thing in the fight. On the other hand, if they judged fights as a whole, I doubt they would have fought the same fight.

 

[MattyMatt926]

Octagon control is only to be used if everything else is equal and is extremely rare. Judges who rely on it are being lazy. Like McCarthy, I thought Thompson landed the cleaner shots in the first three rounds. I had him ahead 4-0 and gave Till rd 5 for the obvious knockdown. As an example of a fight where Octagon control comes in to play, I'd use Quarry vs Starnes where it was obvious Starnes didn't want to fight at all.

Where people are getting it wrong is using cage control as one of the primary aspects of scoring a round.

I personally hate the whole 10pt system. I've always said tit's bad for MMA and simply promotes points fighting. One of my pet peeves is seeing someone look at the clock and then shoot for a takedown with 15 seconds or less left in a round. Things like that are obvious points fighting. I think they should judge fights as a whole. Till's knockdown was the biggest single thing in the fight. On the other hand, if they judged fights as a whole, I doubt they would have fought the same fight.

Spot on and I agree,well all but the “judging fights as a whole” part. But,yeah even on that part,they wouldn’t fight the same fight,correct...

 

[kflo]

Holy shit thats BJ and the bear..
and yeah im old enough to know that..you bastard..
nice one

BJ McKay and his best friend bear..

 

[sonhow]

Yet the judges scored the fight for Till instead of Wonderboy?

No matter what you think the opinion is always going to be subjective about this fight.

 

[Toco]

Even if we could pick the judges, this problem would still exist, because the application of the rules isn't objective.

well they could be more specific, but they aren't that bad. I think its mostly shitty judges

 

[kwd1253]

I accept what BJM says because he is a certified legend and very knowledgeable, and has had significant input into writing the Unified Rules including the scoring criteria.

However, is he actually a registered judge? i know he trains ref's and does seminars on the unifed rules and their applications. Will we ever see him judging at events now that he is no longer reffing full time?

Yes because judges make the right call every time, specially them England judges.

 

[Lemonsqueezer]

well they could be more specific, but they aren't that bad. I think its mostly shitty judges

You really don't understand this objectivity malarkey do you.

 

[-Magua-]

Don't care for either fighter. Woodley beats both .

Yeah those 3 in action fights together, it seems... Suck.

I think till get worked bad against Tyron.

Nick please come back.

 

[Beerus]

I think Mccarthy should stop living in a world where being a ref equals being an expert in fighting.

He knows more then you.

 

[Jack Reacheround]

Hes a fucking ref. What does he know about fighting pfft, whether he wrote it or not.

Much more than the judges who were just boxing judges and usually don’t know shit about MMA. That’s right. They’re boxing judges supplied by the AC. They are not required to know anything about MMA to get that job.

 

[PeterTheGreat]

Nick or Nate?

Nick 1 2 5
Nate 2 3 5





Lol

 

[GrantB13]

I accept what BJM says because he is a certified legend and very knowledgeable, and has had significant input into writing the Unified Rules including the scoring criteria.

However, is he actually a registered judge? i know he trains ref's and does seminars on the unifed rules and their applications. Will we ever see him judging at events now that he is no longer reffing full time?

Are you asking out of curiosity or are you trying to question his knowledge because he's not an officially licensed judge? If it's the latter, that's a weak argument as evidence of many terrible scores by "official judges".

 

[Dankoz]

Big J doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[ultimateriley-o]

Octagon control is only to be used if everything else is equal and is extremely rare. Judges who rely on it are being lazy.

I might agree with those who "rely on it" being lazy, but I absolutely wouldn't agree it's lazy to call the striking in much of this fight even; in fact I would consider it detrimentally stubborn to refuse to acknowledge that the striking in this fight was even, and instead grasping at straws to try to say one of them had the advantage there. This is exactly why affective aggression/octagon control exists.

 

[chinarice]

Can't say I agree with BJM but I find over the years, his reffing skills diminished. Look, if you think a guy outlanding another fighter by 1 strike in a round that is 100% standup means said fighter won the round, I question your judging capabilities.

By the looks of the rounds, it looks like a bunch of 10-10s and then a KD in the final round.... 10-9.

If the rounds have to award a winner then the system fails right from the get go.

 

[CPH]

Then probably make the criteria less vague you fuck.

They only appear vague to high school dropouts.

 

[FloydMayweatherMMA]

Good question. I have no idea if he's on a list of certified judges or not. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any refs working as judges except Cecil Peoples. lol

I just thought it was amusing that he wrote a lot of the rules the judges are supposed to go by and they don't seem to know them. That's one of the problems with judges in my opinion. They often seem to judge fights however the fuck they want and base it on their own private criteria. It's especially bad when judges more known for boxing judge MMA fights.

Mike Beltran is a judge too.

 

[egk]

I might agree with those who "rely on it" being lazy, but I absolutely wouldn't agree it's lazy to call the striking in much of this fight even; in fact I would consider it detrimentally stubborn to refuse to acknowledge that the striking in this fight was even, and instead grasping at straws to try to say one of them had the advantage there. This is exactly why affective aggression/octagon control exists.

I agreed with McCarthy's take on the fight. I felt Thompson landed the better shots in the first 3 rounds anyway. That's where people can disagree though. What judges and fans shouldn't be disagreeing on is the rules of how to judge the fights. I gave you the example of Quarry vs Starnes as a fight where I thought Octagon control would have kicked in. That was mostly Quarry chasing Starnes around the cage with little engagement at all.