Be Honest: do you even train throws/takedowns at your BJJ academy?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Evenflow80, Jun 26, 2018.

  1. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,754
    Likes Received:
    2,026
    this
     
  2. shunyata

    shunyata Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2010
    Messages:
    7,249
    Likes Received:
    558
    Location:
    The City of Angels
    Yes at "pure" bjj schools that barely do any no gi, this is often the case.

    This is why I stated that I overwhelmingly prefer to train at more mma focused schools with Eastern bloc Judo and Sambo influences. Judo and modern sport jiu jitsu are just different branches of Jiu Jitsu differentiated by competition rulesets. With no gi and mma compared to ijf and ibjjf, the rules are MUCH simpler and you're so much freer to grapple without restriction. I feel it's the purest Jiu Jitsu I've ever trained when there's no such thing as shiai or leg reaping.
     
  3. method115

    method115 Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    32,839
    Likes Received:
    10,492
    At my old school we learned a TD almost every single class. At my new school we hardly ever do and I prefer it. This is just a hobby for me and I hate TD's.
     
  4. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes Received:
    625
    This is exactly right. In IBJJF it's unwise to stand, especially if you were swept already, because the top guy can pull and then score again with another sweep, at which point you're down 4-0. I see lots of guys, Leandro Lo being one of the best at it, who deliberately bait you into coming up for a sweep then break away and/or flee the boundary then immediately pull. I think it's lame that IBJJF allows that (should be -1 for top player or counted a sweep for the bottom guy), because tech standups are otherwise a strong weapon for the bottom player, as they can short-circuit a guard pass as well as putting you in great spots for guillotine and kimura counters.
     
    ChainFlow likes this.
  5. asian-glow

    asian-glow White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    55
    I'm not sure what you mean. Narrow goal of drilling takedowns? Are you suggesting that practitioners should go for more submissions from standing or secure the position before they actually go to the ground? This is a serious question as I am befuddled.

    As for accomplished wrestlers/judokas not developing their stand up game, this makes a lot of sense to me. While some of what they know has to be modified for the different ruleset, the biggest deficit in their games is probably their ground game and the guard in particular; I would think they would be eager to quickly engage in the area where they need the most improvement. Not to mention they're in a bjj class - you do as the romans do. For example, you don't gain a lot from playing your A game on someone who knows next to nothing.

    On the flip side, it can be frustrating to work takedowns with bjj people. Many times if they feel outpositioned they will concede the takedown rather than fighting it.
     
  6. Cocoboitoy

    Cocoboitoy White Belt Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    13
    Is Sumo effective against a good wrestler? With a Gi I assume that Sumo will be more effective because they could grab the belt which I notice they do all the time. Have you ever pulled a sumo technique on a bjj match?
     
  7. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    2,665
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    A lot of people say this, but i don't think it's actually true.

    What you get out of practicing your A game on someone worse than you is practice drilling your A game.
     
  8. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes Received:
    625
    in bjj you have a very wide toolkit of standing techniques: all the takedown techniques of wrestling and judo, plus all the submissions of bjj, PLUS the threat of a guard pull or leg entry at any moment. all these techniques chain very well together, so the more you wrestle the more openings for a sub, and the more you threaten the sub the more openings for wrestling.

    a good example is the flying triangle: jumping attacks are unheard of in wrestling, yet in bjj literally any time your opponent has one arm up and one arm down you can jump for a triangle and finish the match. so, if a bjj guy can implement even rudimentary wrestling, say by getting an overhook with wrist control on the far arm, then the flying triangle will be wide open.
     
    ChainFlow likes this.
  9. asian-glow

    asian-glow White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    55
    Oh I see. I thought you were suggesting some kind of non-takedown based submission game from standing that didn't involve flying submissions - stuff like standing ezekiels.

    You're just saying that the rule set is relatively unrestricted in that you are free to practice wrestling, judo, and submission techniques.

    In that case yes, I agree.
     
  10. asian-glow

    asian-glow White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    55
    I respectfully disagree. I generally find that my timing gets worse when I practice my best techniques on people who know relatively little about my strongest skills.

    I think it is incredibly useful, however, to treat it like active drilling and use your B, C, and D game, with the level of game matching the level of resistance a partner can put up.

    We may be talking about the same thing though with just minor hangups on the semantics. Furthermore, maybe my opinion will change as time passes.
     
  11. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes Received:
    625
    it's the ruleset, but there's also a strategic advantage because the bjj player can flow the standup exchanges into a meta that supercedes that of the wrestler or judoka. in other words, the bjj player can wrestle into a takedown or into a sub or into a guard pull, while the wrestler just has the first goal. a further advantage is that the bjj guy is not as concerned if he does get taken down, especially if it's on his own terms, because he always has that "sub, sweep, or get up" firewall in his back pocket.

    the problem is that most bjj guys just do not get this. they see the standup as "learn a few takedowns i'll never be good at anyways, and maybe a low percentage submission i can hit on blue belts."
     
    Typrune Goatley likes this.
  12. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,754
    Likes Received:
    2,026
    Agree completely, its why I teach the bjj guys I've worked with underhooks, you can pull half guard/wrestling into a single really easily
     
    Typrune Goatley likes this.
  13. AdrianT

    AdrianT White Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    19
    Yes, we train takedowns every class for 1 hour, thank god for that! After that we even do a couple of 1 minute "randori" rounds (start standing and continue on the ground) with 2 guys in the middle where we use the IBJJF point system. We do this for both gi and nogi. The guy that wins the round stays in the middle so if you're doing well you will be shark-tanked. I can personally attest that this is the most exhausting thing I have ever done because most people go as hard as they can for 1 minute and if you have been there for a few rounds it far surpasses your common competition match exhaustion.

    1 hour of takedowns might seem a lot but our classes are close to 3 hours (we only run 1 class per day in the evening so that's why), so it's 15 mins warmup, 1 hour takedown drills + randori, 1 hour ground drills, rest is rolling from the knees until the end of the class.

    It's draining as hell, especially after a couple of days in a row, but you get used to it after a while. For anyone wondering, this is in an Eastern bloc country where porrada every day is the name of the game.
     
    HunterAcosta likes this.
  14. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    2,665
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    The CNS is a miser that won't spend resources on something it is not regularly demanded to do so.

    If you took Gui Mendes from an alternate universe and had Gui Mendes show him how to do a knee slide, he wouldn't be able to do a knee slide like Gui Mendes.

    If you want to be good at your plan A, you need to regularly practice your plan A.

    If you want to regularly practice your plan A in a live situation, it needs to be against someone who can't easily impose their plan A on you.
     
  15. Kbits

    Kbits Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Australia
    Yep, at least 2hrs a week, if not more.

    Source: stand up coach for bjj club. I teach gi/no gi judo and I don't have to worry about stupid IJF rules, either. Singles, doubles, ankle picks and fireman's right along side harais and deashis. More and more rolls start in standing now, too.

     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
    Typrune Goatley likes this.
  16. DatCutman

    DatCutman White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2014
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    111
    In a sumo match it certainly is!
    To actually answer the question, I can't say I know for sure. I don't think I've gotten the opportunity to train with a lot of high level wrestlers since I started sumo. I'd probably try to use more Judo-style throwing techniques against them (and like wise, against Judoka, I try to use more wrestling style techniques). Sumo has kimarite which span both of these, so it's really just trying to match up your strong suit with your opponents weaknesses.


    The Mawashi/Belt grip (newcomers usually just tie a BJJ belt around their waist) provides a ton of control, but even in a no-belt situation there are plenty of beltless throws.

    There's a throw in sumo called Sukuinage (I use the free-hand on the back of the head variant) that works very well against bent over opponents, which I've applied with some success. The aggressive tachiai of sumo translates well to initiating a clinch, because unless they know it's coming it can be pretty surprising to have someone aggressively take the body lock (which is either going to lead to a suplex or a body drop). Sumo also has its own version of ankle picks, singles, etc. What I like about Sumo is the rule that nothing other than the bottoms of your feet can touch the ground; it leads to a lot of low risk takedowns.
     
    Cocoboitoy and Typrune Goatley like this.
  17. Kbits

    Kbits Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Australia
    Got any good resources on sumo techniques?
     
  18. DatCutman

    DatCutman White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2014
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    111
    I'll be honest, there aren't a ton; there's a mindset in sumo that you find your techniques "in battle", which means during the hour plus of sparring you do. I've found this to be totally antithetical to the BJJ approach of training your techniques, and trying to apply them in sparring. The best approach is probably somewhere in the middle.

    With that said, I think Sumo for MMA and Sumo Skills: An instructional guide for competitive sumo are the best resources for the mechanics of how to actually perform the techniques. I've used those to learn how to throw and the throw mechanics. You'll find most sumo throws fall into one of two categories; you're being pushed (or pulling your opponent), or you're being pulled (or pushing your opponent). It creates a really nice roadmap for stand up that is pretty easy to follow, and like I said previously, they're all fairly low risk takedowns.
     
    Cocoboitoy, Typrune Goatley and Kbits like this.
  19. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    769
    Man, I hate no-gi judo stuff some much. In my unpleasant experiences the judo guys always stuff that lands you in insane trouble if it doesn't work and they can do it without gi grips only because they do it on people with zero wrestling and they have spends loads of time on it.
     
  20. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,564
    Likes Received:
    769
    I love the seatbelt as BJJ guy, as I can pull into a super good half guard from there.
    I'm surprised that more wrestlers don't play a lucas leite style half guard.
     

Share This Page