Backstep pass to 411, illegal?

[Dogstarman]

In every Cloverleaf finish I've seen they hook the heel of the trapped leg and extend it over the free one (like in the video). I take it this doesn't count as "attacking the foot of the trapped leg" (even though he hooked the ankle) since it's a kneebar? So you can attack every part of the trapped leg in that position except the foot?

I get conflicting stories on that position. Some guys say it’s legal other say it’s considered a heel hook and illegal.

 

[mataleaos]

In every Cloverleaf finish I've seen they hook the heel of the trapped leg and extend it over the free one (like in the video). I take it this doesn't count as "attacking the foot of the trapped leg" (even though he hooked the ankle) since it's a kneebar? So you can attack every part of the trapped leg in that position except the foot?

Yeah, exactly. So I think technically you're using their trapped leg to attack their free leg. How at least that's how it's viewed. And sometimes the trapped leg does get some kneebar pressure applied to it. In my experience that's less likely to happen than smashing the shins together but it can happen if your angle is right.

So yes I think you're right that you can have the saddle as long as you don't attack the trapped foot itself.

But I would be scared to try it in IBJJF for fear of a bad ref no matter what the rules are.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

In IBJJF, the Texas Cloverleaf submission is illegal. It was legal a few years ago but people started taking advantage and really started using it as a heel hook like pressure, so now the submission itself is banned. Ive seen multiple competitors at brown belt being disqualified for using this

 

[BJJ_Rage]

In IBJJF, the Texas Cloverleaf submission is illegal. It was legal a few years ago but people started taking advantage and really started using it as a heel hook like pressure, so now the submission itself is banned. Ive seen multiple competitors at brown belt being disqualified for using this

Is backstep to 4-11 illegal?

 

[mataleaos]

Is backstep to 4-11 illegal?

I don't think so. It wasn't as of late 2016 and early 2017. My friend did an IBJJF and back-stepped to 411 and ankle locked two guys on their free foot. He's a brown belt though.

Someone just recently posted a match from Garry Tonon where he he back stepped to 411 at no gi worlds then hopped back over and brabo choked the guy.

The position itself is fine but you're very limited once you get there. You can't touch the foot of the leg you have trapped and it seems like now you may not even be able to do the leg lace/cloverleaf.

 

[bjjaz]

I don't think so. It wasn't as of late 2016 and early 2017. My friend did an IBJJF and back-stepped to 411 and ankle locked two guys on their free foot. He's a brown belt though.

Someone just recently posted a match from Garry Tonon where he he back stepped to 411 at no gi worlds then hopped back over and brabo choked the guy.

The position itself is fine but you're very limited once you get there. You can't touch the foot of the leg you have trapped and it seems like now you may not even be able to do the leg lace/cloverleaf.

However, I'm assuming kneebar is okay on the trapped leg for brown/black?

 

[mataleaos]

However, I'm assuming kneebar is okay on the trapped leg for brown/black?

Good question. I want to say so. But I also remember when Jeff Glover and Bruno Malfacine had their no-gi match at the JJ Expo with IBJJF rules that Glover entered a saddle and did a kneebar and it was a super fight so there was not a DQ but they did call whatever position they were in a reap and they reset them on the feet.

I'm not sure if Glover got into the kneebar via back-step but it was a kneebar that he got into with some sort of 4-11 style control on the leg. Looked like a bad stoppage to me and the entry and the kneebar itself was totally legit. Bruno bent his own leg and only then was it stopped. Glover did not force the bend.

edit: yeah just watched. Glover had the 4-11 and went to kneebar and Bruno sort of bent his leg to defend and here's a very low res screenshot and Quexinho was reffing and reset them on the feet as soon as Bruno bent his leg as seen in the 2nd pic and a split second before the leg was straight as seen in the 1st pic:

 

[mataleaos]

@bjjaz So honestly if I competed IBJJF again a brown or if I ever do at black belt then I'm going to hesitate to do any type of 411/saddle/honeyhole stuff. Even though it seems like it should be legal there is just way too much confusion online among bjj nerds and if as a community we are so unsure of it then I'm not going to trust an IBJJF ref to get the call right and/or not want an excuse to DQ someone from another team, someone they don't like, or even if they're just exhausted and want to keep the bracket moving.

I think playing the leg game in IBJJF is maybe a bad idea in general. Even in 50/50 or 1LX you can do a straight footlock and turn the wrong way and get DQ'd.

Just seems like playing with fire to me.

 

[bjjaz]

@bjjaz So honestly if I competed IBJJF again a brown or if I ever do at black belt then I'm going to hesitate to do any type of 411/saddle/honeyhole stuff. Even though it seems like it should be legal there is just way too much confusion online among bjj nerds and if as a community we are so unsure of it then I'm not going to trust an IBJJF ref to get the call right and/or not want an excuse to DQ someone from another team, someone they don't like, or even if they're just exhausted and want to keep the bracket moving.

I think playing the leg game in IBJJF is maybe a bad idea in general. Even in 50/50 or 1LX you can do a straight footlock and turn the wrong way and get DQ'd.

Just seems like playing with fire to me.

Yeah I agree w/ you. I went for an Estima lock from the top at purple belt, because I had gotten information from someone that it was legal, yet I ended up letting go as it looked like the ref was about the DQ me haha. I had a lot of conflicting information at the time. There is a recent video of Erberth Santos back stepping in DLR to a kneebar so who knows. I agree with you though, I'm definitely going to be hesitant, if not skip it all together.