Backstep pass to 411, illegal?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by BJJ_Rage, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    3,712
    under ibjjf rules?
     
  2. selfcritical

    selfcritical Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    769
    As long as you kneebar or toe hold the trapped leg it's fine, if not........depends on the ref I think. Even though it's the exact same pressure
     
    BJJ_Rage likes this.
  3. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    3,712
    I normally reach for the far leg, I guess is legal, to be honest I don't see how that position could put pressure on the knee if the knee is totally free
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
  4. machomang

    machomang Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2014
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    84
    you mean 411 right? 411 is a legal position under ibjjf, not dean lister's 'game over' position.
     
  5. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    3,712
    Lol yes... Better said, saddle, then again, 411 And saddle aren't the same thing I think...
     
  6. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    3,712
    @mataleaos do you have any insight about this?
     
  7. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    1,465
    Yeah I've got a lot of insight to this, and spoken with a higher ranking IBJJF ref about it. I'll make a disclaimer at the end though.

    The game-over / reaper / inside ashi position is always illegal and an instant DQ. Their leg is on the outside and your legs are on the inside, with your outside leg reaping over the knee.

    So the 4-11 / saddle / honeyhole / inside sankaku (triangle) are all the same position. Their leg is on the inside, and both of your legs are too, with your outside leg coming over to the inside. I've heard some people say this position is not a true 4-11 or inside sankaku (triangle) unless you actually triangle your legs. The logic being that the triangle makes the 4 shape, and so no triangle means no 4-11. But I learned the position from Jeff Glover and Dean Lister who named the position. They still called it a 4-11 even if they didn't triangle their legs so take that for what it's worth. I think The Danaher guys call it a cross ashi if your legs don't make a triangle (sankaku).

    Anyways to the larger point. The 4-11 position is legal in IBJJF so long as you do not attack the foot of the trapped leg. As soon as you touch the foot of the trapped leg you will get DQ'd. So if you knee slice to your right and backstep to trap their leg leg in the position, you are allowed to hold the position, attack their free (right) leg with straight foot locks, toe holds, or you can even do the texas cloverleaf / leg lace submission hold. But you cannot go for a heel hook (duh) or a straight foot lock on the trapped (left) leg.

    Final disclaimer. All of this assumes the ref is competent and knows the intricacies of leg entanglements. You could get a bad call. So play at your own risk.

    Bonus video of Renzo Gracie black belt doing the texas cloverleaf / leg lace submission from the 4-11 in IBJJF back in 2008.

     
  8. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    3,712
    thanks bro!

    yeah thats my favorite attack from the 4-11 saldde inside sankaku insert name... the leg lace submission.
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  9. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    1,465
    It hurts so fucking much. I think that's the most painful submission hold besides a twister or can opener. Do you do it the more polite way where you try to ankle lock their bottom foot with their top leg, or do you do it the mean way and just smash their tibia bones together?
     
  10. EGDM

    EGDM Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    568
    I stuff the top leg all the way down and kneebar. Imagine the starting frame of Keenan's video, but with uke's bent leg between Keenan and the barred leg instead.
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  11. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    3,712
    I actually look to kneebar the leg, but most of the times people tap due to a calf slicer pressure or a double ankle lock pressure, I wonder why we dont see the sub use more, dds boys get there all the time, yet never seem to go for it, they just chill controlling the leg and when the can, they go for the inside hh...
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  12. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    1,465
    I think they go for the inside hh just because it's so far and away the most powerful leg lock and if you have a strong 4-11 then you've got to really drop the ball to not get the inside hh.

     
  13. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    3,712
    jeez gary almost ripped the dudes entire leg apart on that vid.

    tx again!
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  14. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,698
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    I think the extra control might be it's own reward too though; im sure Gordon might have appreciated that after Felipe reversed the position and took his back (twice).
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  15. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    1,465
    You mean the texas cloverleaf over the inside heel hook?

    or just the 4-11 position in general?
     
    BJJ_Rage likes this.
  16. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,698
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Yeah.

    And yeah.
     
    BJJ_Rage and mataleaos like this.
  17. ChainFlow

    ChainFlow Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    1,544
    Location:
    Mostly the Midwest
    Gordon has the habit of releasing the non-attacked leg earlier than Garry or Eddie does, from what I've seen. Garry holds on to it until the inside heel hook is practically complete. He especially loves turning to the inside but he keeps ahold of that other leg and pulls it in so that the opponent can't build up base.

    Or maybe Pena is just really damn good at getting that other leg free and getting to base.
     
    winterbike and mataleaos like this.
  18. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,698
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Easy answer is a little of column A, a little of column B.

    That actually reminds me of a moment during the absolute finals where Galvao was helping commentate, Gordon was in on a saddle on Pena and Pena was doing a running man escape, and Galvao was saying 'he's turning the wrong way, if he wants to escape he needs to turn the other way', and i was just sitting there thinking 'Andre you're a great guy, but i think Felipe knows a thing or two about playing with the legs (especially since he beat this guy already).'
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  19. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    1,465
    I think it's a combo of both
     
  20. Chute Stomp

    Chute Stomp Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,418
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    uk
    In every Cloverleaf finish I've seen they hook the heel of the trapped leg and extend it over the free one (like in the video). I take it this doesn't count as "attacking the foot of the trapped leg" (even though he hooked the ankle) since it's a kneebar? So you can attack every part of the trapped leg in that position except the foot?
     

Share This Page