At what point does Karate, and Tae Kwon Do actually help you?

[theTKDguy]

If you're actually any good at either (which most people who "train" aren't) then it absolutely helps. Your average Joe Meathead isn't at all expecting to get railed with kicks from distance, for instance.

this. It depends on the guy who practises it. then again, are we talking about a street fight, an mma fight or what?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Either one has the potential to be effective in some situations if properly taught. The problem is that there is WAY more garbage being taught as self-defense than there is effective self-defense. And nearly every instructor calls their garbage the ULTIMATE in self-defense.

Sadly most students come away with nothing but a false sense of security. And that's criminal.

I don't think karate or tkd offer much as far as in fighting which is very important.

 

[fluffball]

The problem with TKD and karate in HS is that you're likely to have an opponent that either wrestlers or plays football (or in my area, boxes). All of those are bad matchups for TMAs. And at least when I was in HS, wrestling was mandatory in gym class. Don't know if it still is.

I was around some dumb shit teenagers leave their HS the other day, and all the guys were double legging each other and what not. HS kids wrestle in the US; even if you're not on the team you wrestle with your friends who are.

And in my area, there is a huge tradition of boxing. One of the two year olds my son was playing with the other day was learning boxing from his dad, and I plan to do the same in time.

 

[fluffball]

I've got to emphasize that my opinion of the benefit is minimal. I mean better than nothing.

When I was dating the girl I'm married to now she showed me a self-defense technique that she had been taught by a TKD guy. If the bad guy put his arm around her she was to throw her leg over his arm and sit down on his arm "forcing him to the ground." I weighed 144 lbs at the time. I had a guy about 180 try it on me. Since he ended up sitting at the bend of my elbow all I had to do was stand up straight and I easily lifted him off the floor and stood there nearly relaxed. And this guy was teaching bunches of women this crap. Pisses me off.

Kind of off topic, but my all time favorite "self defense" technique I learned from TMA actually works. It's just amazing, listen to this glorious nonsense.

It was one of the first things I ever learned in martial arts. You're shaking someone's hand when you violently push his hand to the left while using your other hand to palm punch his elbow to the right, and simultaneously elbow him in the face with your right elbow. I believe it's called an arm scissor or something, with the added elbow. You attack his wrist, elbow, shoulder and face all at the same time.

So now every time I'm in a business meeting and shake someone's hand I imagine just absolutely obliterating the guy with 3 joint attacks and an elbow to the face.

I think it might actually have a use though, since a lot of baddies use a technique called an 'interview' to size up victims, whether for violence or just verbal scamming. I'm sure everyone has had it happen where some sketchy looking dude in a subway station comes up and wants to shake your hand. In an emergency, you could ambush his ambush.

 

[fluffball]

Sounds entirely doable. Should require no cooperation at all from your assailant. Yeah, right.

I can see applications in politics though...

It wouldn't work as described in an active fight, but if someone is not expecting it and has their arm mostly extended for you to do what you want with, it's actually a pretty cool technique. It's just SO bizarre; I can't imagine why I was taught this other than maybe to get across the idea of arm locks.

Best I've done with it is arm lock a bunch of unsuspecting friends and one dad trying to greet me. It truly is fun.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

The reason it works for the few elites... is because they sparred in MMA gyms with legit fighters. They not only had ample time and natural apptitude, but were able and willing to admit with their own systems what didn't work and adapt to reality. And even then, there's not very many of them, are there.

 

[eternaldarkness]

If you want your kid to be able to defend themselves without to much hassle just enroll them in wrestling.

i kinda believe wrestling is the foundation before any other martial art.

 

[wilddeuces]

Depends on the individual. A one armed guy with a jab can do alright; it comes down to the individual.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

It obviously depends on how the training was. If it was typical mcdojo we have a problem. But glove karate, knockdown karate, full contact karate etc are all as fine as other striking arts for fighting schlubs imo.

 

[Frode Falch]

Are you not a mcgregor fan?

 

[Hotora86]

The problem with TKD and karate in HS is that you're likely to have an opponent that either wrestlers or plays football (or in my area, boxes). All of those are bad matchups for TMAs. And at least when I was in HS, wrestling was mandatory in gym class. Don't know if it still is.

I was around some dumb shit teenagers leave their HS the other day, and all the guys were double legging each other and what not. HS kids wrestle in the US; even if you're not on the team you wrestle with your friends who are.

And in my area, there is a huge tradition of boxing. One of the two year olds my son was playing with the other day was learning boxing from his dad, and I plan to do the same in time.

Good point, wrestling is a powerful tool against Karate. In Europe there is no wrestling in school so any martial art will give you a huge advantage over the average bully. In Japan everyone is taught Judo in school but Judo actually blends nicely with Karate so together they give you a solid fighting base.

I personally started Karate very late in life, when I was 20 - but it did so much good for my confidence, discipline and physical abilities that I am forever grateful for the opportunity. The shocking part was that I used to get into fights before - won some and lost some - but after some time in Karate I learned to AVOID physical conflict with confidence, calmness and without hurting my pride. It may sound silly to people who just wanna learn to fight but I now truly believe that “the ultimate aim of Karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of character of its participants”. (Gichin Funakoshi)

As a final note, Japanese martial arts seem to be better suited for kids and absolute beginners - due to the clear colored-belt ranking path, safe competition rules, the usual comradery and highlighting of moral values. Boxing and Muay Thai can definitely make you a better fighter in a shorter time span but I wouldn't sign up my kids for those, not until they're in their upper teens.

 

[Ilk]

I loved that Hotora86. I however will go with wrestling for kids, not only because it is a solid base but because they develop strength, conditioning and balance in these classes. The kids become athletic.

I would sign my kid to boxing to train technique but not spar.

 

[spacetime]

I don't think karate or tkd offer much as far as in fighting which is very important.

Karate was originally known as Karate jujutsu, but not all of the original masters passed on t he grappling aspect of Karate, and basically dumbed it down for westeners.. Taekwondo does have grading in self defence for black belts and this includes joint manipulation/throws.

 

[AtlSteel]

biggest thing it did for me was made me not scared to stand infront of someone to fight. That's a big part of fighting. Doing tournys and stuff just got you used to a fight scenario. But your right besides that, its not the greatest street fighting tool. But definitely made me more comfortable while in street fights

I've always worried about kids who get their McDojo black belts getting false confidence and thinking they can fight. I think most of them know its pretty much bullshit.

 

[fightfan84]

I've always worried about kids who get their McDojo black belts getting false confidence and thinking they can fight. I think most of them know its pretty much bullshit.

Yea man it's so true lol one real life fight changes opinions pretty quick tho.

 

[Hotora86]

Karate was originally known as Karate jujutsu, but not all of the original masters passed on t he grappling aspect of Karate, and basically dumbed it down for westeners.

The grappling aspect of Karate was called Tegumi - an Okinawan indigenous martial art which most ppl living there knew and practiced. "Jujutsu" is a Japanese term, thus it would not be used to describe the Okinawan martial art. Okinawans have their own language and used to be independent of Japan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_language

 

[Uchi Mata]

Like any other style, how you train TKD or Karate matters a lot more than the moves themselves. There are only so many ways to throw a punch or a kick, and while at higher levels the differences in meta games between various martial arts in combination with the rule set you're fighting under and what sort of place you're fighting (big cage, small ring, etc.) can make a huge difference on which approach works best if you're just talking about playground fights then anyone who has spent a lot of time sparring live against a variety of opponents is going to fuck up some random guy who doesn't know much. The problem with TKD and Karate is less the moves than how they're taught. Personally, I never sparred in TKD other than Olympic style which is all about fast kicks and ignores the hands almost completely. Pretty useless when someone is throwing a punch at your face. But ITF TKD is much more open, and I imagine they would have much less problem in a real fight than your Oly/WTF guys. Karate it varies so much by style. Kyokushin guys are tough as nails and would shit kick pretty much any random person on the street. But something like Shotokan the way it's often taught in the US with limited if any full contact sparring? That guy is going to get killed.

 

[devante]

it works if you train it appropriately are in shape and have some sort of contact..

i have ROUTINELY seen tma types do well in self def or sparring other stylist...

my brother does kung fu, seen him hold his own sparring at muay thai school, seen him hold his own w/a sanda (choy li fut stylist). Real sparring...

i seen multiple people who trained and trained seriously in karate or tkd ko people in street fights and alot of the karateka i know did trips, throws.. so when people try to close distance or clinch they tossed them.

the avg tma practitioner i know is CLEARLY much more realistic and better than the guys most of you see or deal w/.

saamag is trained in mult arts..i seen him torch people on the feet using 85% karate or 85% kung fu tech

wrestling boxing judo work cus people who take it ..do it seriously do it to compete and focus on being in shape.. the guys in tma who do the same do work in fights/sparring

few yrs ago i regularly sparred w/a wing chun/sport kung fu guy, he was pretty legit on the feet...had nice trips from clinches..and had an excellent lead leg attack, blocks, sweeps and simple traps...

not as physical or active as mma or kb guys or boxing guys i sparred; but his kicking game was so much better than most guys i sparred, both in variety, set up...dist mgmt was very good too..as were setups and footwork

 

[Azam]

It may sound silly to people who just wanna learn to fight but I now truly believe that “the ultimate aim of Karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of character of its participants”. (Gichin Funakoshi)

As a final note, Japanese martial arts seem to be better suited for kids and absolute beginners - due to the clear colored-belt ranking path, safe competition rules, the usual comradery and highlighting of moral values. Boxing and Muay Thai can definitely make you a better fighter in a shorter time span but I wouldn't sign up my kids for those, not until they're in their upper teens.

I think karate seems to be better as well overall in terms of long term training. I think as well that it's great for giving kids/beginners solid striking foundations - it builds from the bottom up very well because it's not so geared on quick results or sports/competition.

Nearly all full contact martial arts styles suffer from training that's poorly designed for long term consistent training - that's primarily because most of those styles have evolved into some sort of sports/competition where training is based on quick results for sports/competition use. It's also no secret that training in some of these styles breaks your body down much quicker from wear/tear than doing a TMA like Muay Boran, Karate etc. Back problems/knee issues are a big issue in grappling from the experience I've had of it and wear/tear is equally significant in MT, Boxing & other full contact arts even Kyokushin & Kudo (which I train). It's part of the reason why we see more older people in TMA's than in full contact styles and why many more students in TMAs end up training for consistently longer time frames than those in full contact styles (I think the belt systems in TMAs also plays into it a bit).

It makes me think self defense isn't necessarily the goal with many full contact martial arts styles but how to fight. I mean if a martial arts style has training where you sustain wear/tear to the degree that your health is compromised as well as your ability to defend yourself properly or perform certain techniques (because of injury) or where the training regimen means you drop out of training (very common in full contact styles, all of them have high drop out rates) - then I feel that it's failing in the self defense department.

I think there is a wisdom with taking your time to get results - it means your body can recuperate properly. I think a chronic issue in full contact martial arts training is not recovering enough tied with intense training sessions. I mean even in Kudo - I've seen my fair share of people getting injured in class (especially those that come on a regular basis). I've seen it in Kyokushin & I've witnessed it in MMA. I think also taking your time means you're at it longer.



Also with the Funakoshi quote. I can't stress enough how I agree with you. No matter how much training you do, how much time you dedicate to it - father time is a bitch. Training to be strong or to be able to fight is a vain pursuit in the grand scheme of things. There will always be someone who is stronger or someone who just has your number and with time that goal becomes less realistic as you age. That said an art that isn't effective is much worse. You need a bit of both.

 

[Hotora86]

I think karate seems to be better as well overall in terms of long term training. I think as well that it's great for giving kids/beginners solid striking foundations - it builds from the bottom up very well because it's not so geared on quick results or sports/competition.

Nearly all full contact martial arts styles suffer from training that's poorly designed for long term consistent training - that's primarily because most of those styles have evolved into some sort of sports/competition where training is based on quick results for sports/competition use. It's also no secret that training in some of these styles breaks your body down much quicker from wear/tear than doing a TMA like Muay Boran, Karate etc. Back problems/knee issues are a big issue in grappling from the experience I've had of it and wear/tear is equally significant in MT, Boxing & other full contact arts even Kyokushin & Kudo (which I train). It's part of the reason why we see more older people in TMA's than in full contact styles and why many more students in TMAs end up training for consistently longer time frames than those in full contact styles (I think the belt systems in TMAs also plays into it a bit).

It makes me think self defense isn't necessarily the goal with many full contact martial arts styles but how to fight. I mean if a martial arts style has training where you sustain wear/tear to the degree that your health is compromised as well as your ability to defend yourself properly or perform certain techniques (because of injury) or where the training regimen means you drop out of training (very common in full contact styles, all of them have high drop out rates) - then I feel that it's failing in the self defense department.

I think there is a wisdom with taking your time to get results - it means your body can recuperate properly. I think a chronic issue in full contact martial arts training is not recovering enough tied with intense training sessions. I mean even in Kudo - I've seen my fair share of people getting injured in class (especially those that come on a regular basis). I've seen it in Kyokushin & I've witnessed it in MMA. I think also taking your time means you're at it longer.


Also with the Funakoshi quote. I can't stress enough how I agree with you. No matter how much training you do, how much time you dedicate to it - father time is a bitch. Training to be strong or to be able to fight is a vain pursuit in the grand scheme of things. There will always be someone who is stronger or someone who just has your number and with time that goal becomes less realistic as you age. That said an art that isn't effective is much worse. You need a bit of both.

Great points, thanks Azam!