Ashihara Karate and the Sabaki Technique

[Tayski]

Shigeru died?. (quick google later) Damn, I missed that! My shihan will be sorry, they were close in the old days -before shigeru problems got out of hand and he was expelled from kyokushin.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forum...karate/389213-soshu-shigeru-oyama-passed-away

 

[shinkyoku]

Man, who wasn't expelled from Kyokushin? It's sad to see politics, underhandedness, envy and greed effect something as strong as Kyokushin. Shame really. I don't know how true this is but I've heard through the grapevine that Soshu's joints and cartilage were completely deteriorated and that he was in so much pain that he turned to heavy drinking. I find that to be very sad if it's true.

There was many reasons people in kyokushin back then was kicked out. politics and personal rivalry can not be blamed in all cases. Sometimes the reason was with the one kicked out..

Shigeru sadly didnt need a reason to drink heavily. The problems that got him expelled from kyokushin in the 70ies was drinking, gambling, and the people he made deals with in order to pay off the debts he got when he did the first two at the same time. In the end his brother took over his organization because he could not be relied on on a daily basis. He was an amazing karateka, but his personal life was a mess.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Shigeru sadly didnt need a reason to drink heavily. The problems that got him expelled from kyokushin in the 70ies was drinking, gambling, and the people he made deals with in order to pay off the debts he got when he did the first two at the same time. In the end his brother took over his organization because he could not be relied on on a daily basis. He was an amazing karateka, but his personal life was a mess.

I knew about the gambling thing but I didn't know that he was already a heavy drinker at that time. Very sad.

 

[Azam]

To add to the convo - I think a distinction needs to be made as well. Sabaki applied in Enshin/Ashihara is very different from the way it's applied in Kudo.

I personally think pulling off sabaki isn't easy to begin with because in reality it's very easy to defend against - you just back off & reset your position - but I think it's much easier to pull off in Kyokushin - in knockdown karate and with Enshin/Ashihara & it's competition format. In Kudo from what I've experienced it's not as easy - yes you have the benefit of grabbing pulling on the gi but the range is much further out than in knockdown/enshin and you have to contend with your face being a target & being grappled.

The range really makes a big difference as well - as when you're closer like in Enshin/knockdown - less distance/less time for an opponent to react to any sabaki attempt whereas in Kudo or even shotokan point fighting the range means opponents have more distance/more time to react to sabaki. I think sabaki tends to work a lot better when it's set up with small consecutive moments rather than 1 big movement - as smaller movements are harder to pinpoint.

I also think that sabaki is much easier as far as kudo goes - to pull off when someone is coming at you because if you've drilled it enough and have enough space/time - it can be done quite effectively & often. The only thing is sometimes it's hard to set up a shots off the sabaki because there's nothing stopping the guy/girl opposite from transitioning straight away into grappling once you've initiated sabaki.

It definitely is much easier to work against people who are less experienced than you or who don't really know enough about it.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I personally think pulling off sabaki isn't easy to begin with because in reality it's very easy to defend against - you just back off & reset your position -

I think this depends on what combative environment we are talking about. If we are talking about knockdown competition then I would agree with you not because the technique is ineffective but because most competitors know when an opponent is trying to use it and will know how to defend against it. If we are talking about a street fight with no rules then I don't think it will be so easy to defend against someone who has trained it for a very long time and is really good at executing it.

but I think it's much easier to pull off in Kyokushin - in knockdown karate and with Enshin/Ashihara & it's competition format.

I'm going to respectfully disagree based on my reply above. Especially with Enshin and Ashihara (and Seidokaikan for that matter) competitions. It's surprising that you would see less sabaki technique in a competition that is based upon it but this goes back to everyone entering said competitions being trained to defend against it. I think a competitor would have a very slightly better chance of using it in non Enshin/Ashihara/Seidokaikan tournaments and that's only if they are fighting someone who is somewhat ignorant of the technique and does not know how to defend against it.

In Kudo from what I've experienced it's not as easy - yes you have the benefit of grabbing pulling on the gi but the range is much further out than in knockdown/enshin and you have to contend with your face being a target & being grappled.

Yes, I can definitely see how this would be a problem; particularly if someone is trying to employ sabaki from further out. Sabaki is more successful if you are able to exercise Control over your opponent and unbalance him and in order to do that you have to go in and clash to gain that control and kuzushi. I think another part of the problem is competition rules. Because of obvious reasons certain fighting moves are not allowed in competition which can minimize the utility of sabaki such as no kicks allowed to the back of the knee joint, no direct attacks to the spine, no rising hiza geri to the back of the head, no ura nage from behind your opponent, no kicks to the back of the head, etc. All of these attacking techniques can really hurt your opponent and successfully pulling off the sabaki technique can put you in a position vis-a-vis your opponent to use those techniques while still removing yourself from your opponent's line of attack.

This is why I have been saying from the very beginning that my attraction to the sabaki technique is it's potential application in a real fight and not in competition. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the sabaki technique kinda sucks in knockdown rules competitions nowadays and mainly for two reasons; one, the rules minimize how effectively you can use it and two, most competitors know how to deal with the "minimized use" of the sabaki technique. Even in Ashihara and Enshin competitions you don't see it for this second reason. You may see more attempts at it in Enshin's Sabaki Challenge but those attempts are seldom successful due to the combatants trying to employ the technique from long range.

The range really makes a big difference as well - as when you're closer like in Enshin/knockdown - less distance/less time for an opponent to react to any sabaki attempt whereas in Kudo or even shotokan point fighting the range means opponents have more distance/more time to react to sabaki. I think sabaki tends to work a lot better when it's set up with small consecutive moments rather than 1 big movement - as smaller movements are harder to pinpoint.

I completely agree with this. Well said Azam.

I also think that sabaki is much easier as far as kudo goes - to pull off when someone is coming at you because if you've drilled it enough and have enough space/time - it can be done quite effectively & often. The only thing is sometimes it's hard to set up a shots off the sabaki because there's nothing stopping the guy/girl opposite from transitioning straight away into grappling once you've initiated sabaki.

In a way I agree with you on this and I still think alot of it has to do with what you are and are not allowed to do in competitions. For example, I don't think sweeps are allowed in Kudo competitions which I think is an excellent maneuver to immediately follow up with if you've successfully sabaki'd your opponent's attack. The ULTIMATE GOAL with sabaki (like with Judo and Aikido) is to get your opponent down on the ground while you remain on your feet and Finish Him off by stomping him while he's down. You cannot do this in any competition that I know of (except for when PRIDE FC was still around). But this is why it was taught by Hideyuki Ashihara to be used in street fights and why I believe that it is more applicable and practical in no rules fights on the street.

It definitely is much easier to work against people who are less experienced than you or who don't really know enough about it.

THIS!

I've managed to pull it off against exactly the type of people you just described (in the dojo); those who are less experienced and don't know about it. And this, again, is why I prefer it for a real fight outside of the dojo; particularly if I find myself going up against someone who may be bigger and stronger than I am. And let's ask ourselves how many people out on the streets would know about Hideyuki Ashihara's exposition of sabaki? What are the odds that some thug is going to know that this particular technique exists, let alone how to defend it? And who walks around with a sign on his back that says "I train in Kyokushin Karate and I know how to use the sabaki technique."?

I said before somewhere earlier in this thread that sabaki is better not only for the streets but more importantly as a tactic that not many people would expect let alone be prepared to defend against.

 

[Tayski]

But this is why it was taught by Hideyuki Ashihara to be used in street fights and why I believe that it is more applicable and practical in no rules fights on the street.

I've managed to pull it off against exactly the type of people you just described (in the dojo); those who are less experienced and don't know about it. And this, again, is why I prefer it for a real fight outside of the dojo; particularly if I find myself going up against someone who may be bigger and stronger than I am. And let's ask ourselves how many people out on the streets would know about Hideyuki Ashihara's exposition of sabaki? What are the odds that some thug is going to know that this particular technique exists, let alone how to defend it? And who walks around with a sign on his back that says "I train in Kyokushin Karate and I know how to use the sabaki technique."?

I said before somewhere earlier in this thread that sabaki is better not only for the streets but more importantly as a tactic that not many people would expect let alone be prepared to defend against.

You keep talking about street fights and defending yourself in the streets in most threads when discussing Kyokushin, Ashihara or anything else related.

Do you live in a war zone? Are you being bullied on a constant basis?

I can tell you I'd much rather rely on using objects, headbutts and pure aggression than trying to study Sabaki and all it's fancy Japanese terms to save myself.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you're studying those kind martial arts for the streets, you're in for a reality check some day. And I say that as someone who really respects and is a fan of Knockdown Karate styles.

 

[Chungungo]

You keep talking about street fights and defending yourself in the streets in most threads when discussing Kyokushin, Ashihara or anything else related.

Do you live in a war zone? Are you being bullied on a constant basis?

I can tell you I'd much rather rely on using objects, headbutts and pure aggression than trying to study Sabaki and all it's fancy Japanese terms to save myself.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you're studying those kind martial arts for the streets, you're in for a reality check some day. And I say that as someone who really respects and is a fan of Knockdown Karate styles.

I agree with you but the simple tai sabaki is useful , is super easy to take the back of a regular oponent.

You see sabaki techniques used quite regularly in Kudo as well - especially among the Japanese Kudo retinue. You see sabaki being taught in nearly every style of Karate - I've encountered it in Uechi ryu, goju & others - but like said in Ashihara it's really emphasized.

Ogawa Hideki - one of my favourite Kudo fighters used a lot of sabaki in his kudo and was very successful at pulling off sabaki techniques against competent fighters in competition although he grabbed the gi to allow him to pull it off - check instructional below & highlight where he pulled it off - I've seen him pull it off many times - can't find vids on youtube might have been taken down :






I think another reason it worked so well for him was because he focused very heavily on gi chokes and getting hold of the gi (front grip & some sort of grip on the back if he wanted to defend any offensive grappling attempt) or just the single grip if he wanted to strike instead of grapple like the above video - in either case he had a set plan in each case if his opponent tried to attack him. If an opponent tried to defend by striking or regaining posture - he'd simply use sabaki, strike or just break off - if his opponent tried to defend by grappling he'd have a variety of counter chokes ready to sink in - I think that latter reason is why he had a lot of success because he already had a superior angle & the advantage of having a grip in - people were wary of getting into a grappling exchange because he'd already stacked the advantage twice so in his favour.





Like in the second video above (the highlight video) - after he pulled off the sabaki (a bit messy since he initiated the grappling off the sabaki) - he went straight for the grappling exchange and he immediately had part of the gi choke set in before they even hit the ground - his opponent was purely focused on defending that gi choke because Ogawa had it set in so deep.

You see sabaki techniques used quite regularly in Kudo as well - especially among the Japanese Kudo retinue. You see sabaki being taught in nearly every style of Karate - I've encountered it in Uechi ryu, goju & others - but like said in Ashihara it's really emphasized.

Ogawa Hideki - one of my favourite Kudo fighters used a lot of sabaki in his kudo and was very successful at pulling off sabaki techniques against competent fighters in competition although he grabbed the gi to allow him to pull it off - check instructional below & highlight where he pulled it off - I've seen him pull it off many times - can't find vids on youtube might have been taken down :






I think another reason it worked so well for him was because he focused very heavily on gi chokes and getting hold of the gi (front grip & some sort of grip on the back if he wanted to defend any offensive grappling attempt) or just the single grip if he wanted to strike instead of grapple like the above video - in either case he had a set plan in each case if his opponent tried to attack him. If an opponent tried to defend by striking or regaining posture - he'd simply use sabaki, strike or just break off - if his opponent tried to defend by grappling he'd have a variety of counter chokes ready to sink in - I think that latter reason is why he had a lot of success because he already had a superior angle & the advantage of having a grip in - people were wary of getting into a grappling exchange because he'd already stacked the advantage twice so in his favour.





Like in the second video above (the highlight video) - after he pulled off the sabaki (a bit messy since he initiated the grappling off the sabaki) - he went straight for the grappling exchange and he immediately had part of the gi choke set in before they even hit the ground - his opponent was purely focused on defending that gi choke because Ogawa had it set in so deep.

I do that from the Kudo video a lot in judo, is very useful.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I agree with you but the simple tai sabaki is useful , is super easy to take the back of a regular oponent.

I agree. I've learned from personal experience how super easy it is to get into the blind spot of a less experienced opponent. Sabaki (or tai sabaki as you referred to) is not the answer for everything when it comes to combat but it does come in handy when the opportunity is there and you're able to capitalize on it.

 

[Tayski]

I agree with you but the simple tai sabaki is useful , is super easy to take the back of a regular oponent

I agree. I've learned from personal experience how super easy it is to get into the blind spot of a less experienced opponent. Sabaki (or tai sabaki as you referred to) is not the answer for everything when it comes to combat but it does come in handy when the opportunity is there and you're able to capitalize on it.

It's very easy to do most pretty much anything to a less experienced or untrained civilian. Most people panic when they're getting hit properly and they usually don't have a clue about any grappling. I'm not a Judo guy and have easily pulled off o-soto-gari's to untrained idiots.

Sabaki is ok, but as Azam said when you're in that sort of range you can be vulnerable to head attacks and getting grappled. And I don't see how you'd apply Sabaki at a longer range.

 

[Azam]

I think this depends on what combative environment we are talking about. If we are talking about knockdown competition then I would agree with you not because the technique is ineffective but because most competitors know when an opponent is trying to use it and will know how to defend against it. If we are talking about a street fight with no rules then I don't think it will be so easy to defend against someone who has trained it for a very long time and is really good at executing it.

I'm going to respectfully disagree based on my reply above. Especially with Enshin and Ashihara (and Seidokaikan for that matter) competitions. It's surprising that you would see less sabaki technique in a competition that is based upon it but this goes back to everyone entering said competitions being trained to defend against it. I think a competitor would have a very slightly better chance of using it in non Enshin/Ashihara/Seidokaikan tournaments and that's only if they are fighting someone who is somewhat ignorant of the technique and does not know how to defend against it.

I think sabaki is much easier to pull off in knockdown competition compared to any other format - precisely because the distance is much closer. I think that's why you see a lot of it in knockdown karate competition - it just isn't the same kind of sabaki you see in enshin/ashihara because of the grappling elements & the competition format. I mean I'm no expert at knockdown karate - fairly average but even I've pulled off sabaki in sparring and I ain't a sabaki specialist. I think a high percentage of kyokushin practitioners have pulled off some form of sabaki in knockdown sparring.

The reason like said before is the short range of knockdown - it lends itself very well to sabaki because reactions/responsiveness is determined by distance - the greater the distance you have between you & your opponent the more time you have to react vice versa the shorter the range the less distance/time you have to react hence why sabaki works so well in knockdown.

It works just as easily in enshin/ashihara - the only reason you don't see it in those competitions is like you said in earlier posts (a) practitioners in enshin/ashihara are hip to it (basis of the style), (b) it's very easy to defend against, (c) everyone is always on the lookout for it and (d) you can only grab for a limited time so the most efficient way to score a sweep/throw is to successfully pull off sabaki - hence point (c) everyone knows it's coming so they are on high alert for it hence the range being slightly further out than knockdown.

In comparison to other arts where the distance is further out it is much harder to pull off - which was the point I'm making i.e. it's easier to pull off in knockdown & enshin/ashihara. Like if you took an enshin guy and put him in a ruleset where the distance is further out he'd find it much more difficult to pull off than he would in enshin.

Yes, I can definitely see how this would be a problem; particularly if someone is trying to employ sabaki from further out. Sabaki is more successful if you are able to exercise Control over your opponent and unbalance him and in order to do that you have to go in and clash to gain that control and kuzushi. I think another part of the problem is competition rules. Because of obvious reasons certain fighting moves are not allowed in competition which can minimize the utility of sabaki such as no kicks allowed to the back of the knee joint, no direct attacks to the spine, no rising hiza geri to the back of the head, no ura nage from behind your opponent, no kicks to the back of the head, etc. All of these attacking techniques can really hurt your opponent and successfully pulling off the sabaki technique can put you in a position vis-a-vis your opponent to use those techniques while still removing yourself from your opponent's line of attack.

This is why I have been saying from the very beginning that my attraction to the sabaki technique is it's potential application in a real fight and not in competition. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the sabaki technique kinda sucks in knockdown rules competitions nowadays and mainly for two reasons; one, the rules minimize how effectively you can use it and two, most competitors know how to deal with the "minimized use" of the sabaki technique. Even in Ashihara and Enshin competitions you don't see it for this second reason. You may see more attempts at it in Enshin's Sabaki Challenge but those attempts are seldom successful due to the combatants trying to employ the technique from long range.

Here we can agree. I'd have no issue with it working much better in real life against someone who doesn't know what it is. Yes in knockdown the rules severely limit what you can do with it - I definitely agree - Kyokushin fighters would be a lot less gung-ho and aggressive if there was less limits on the sabaki - but even saying that though we've both seen lots of knockdown karateka pull off sabaki by quick lateral movements that you sometimes see - where for that split second they have the advantage - the only difference being they can only strike so theirs only so much you can do with it.

In a way I agree with you on this and I still think alot of it has to do with what you are and are not allowed to do in competitions. For example, I don't think sweeps are allowed in Kudo competitions which I think is an excellent maneuver to immediately follow up with if you've successfully sabaki'd your opponent's attack. The ULTIMATE GOAL with sabaki (like with Judo and Aikido) is to get your opponent down on the ground while you remain on your feet and Finish Him off by stomping him while he's down. You cannot do this in any competition that I know of (except for when PRIDE FC was still around). But this is why it was taught by Hideyuki Ashihara to be used in street fights and why I believe that it is more applicable and practical in no rules fights on the street.

Sweeps are allowed in Kudo. The reason you don't see much sabaki in Kudo is because the range/grappling makes it much harder to pull off. If you allowed grabbing as long as you want in Enshin - you'd have the same issue. It's very easy to stop sabaki in Kudo - you just secure a good grip on your opponents Gi to slow him down (and stop sabaki in the process), you just reset range or you initiate grappling. You can stomp in Kudo as well - as well as ground/pound - only difference is it's simulated to show dominance in that position (you don't stomp to hurt your opponent).


Everything I'm pretty much in agreement with.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I think sabaki is much easier to pull off in knockdown competition compared to any other format - precisely because the distance is much closer. I think that's why you see a lot of it in knockdown karate competition - it just isn't the same kind of sabaki you see in enshin/ashihara because of the grappling elements & the competition format. I mean I'm no expert at knockdown karate - fairly average but even I've pulled off sabaki in sparring and I ain't a sabaki specialist. I think a high percentage of kyokushin practitioners have pulled off some form of sabaki in knockdown sparring.

The reason like said before is the short range of knockdown - it lends itself very well to sabaki because reactions/responsiveness is determined by distance - the greater the distance you have between you & your opponent the more time you have to react vice versa the shorter the range the less distance/time you have to react hence why sabaki works so well in knockdown.

And this what I find to be a funny situation with using sabaki technique in knockdown competitions and Enshin's Sabaki Challenge. Like you said (and as I said on a couple of occasions) the shorter the distance (and thus, the CLOSER you are to your opponent) the better your chances of using the sabaki technique successfully. So you would think that knockdown competitions would be the perfect testing ground to use it due to the distance being so much closer. BUT, the grabbing rules in most knockdown competitions do not allow you to take maximum advantage of that split second that you are able to angle off the centerline and get to your opponent's side. Because of that, as long as your opponent is aware of your attempts at sidestepping or lateral movement it is quite easy for him to step and turn in the same direction to prevent you from truly capitalizing on a split second superior position. Their rules make it so that you can only use the four basic footwork positions which not only handicaps the full use of the sabaki technique but is all that competitors need to be aware of. And because of the limitations of how you can use the sabaki technique it is actually quite easy to defend against in most knockdown rules competition.

Even if you do see some instances of it being used in knockdown, my contention is that you don't see it As Much as we should nor How it can and should be used.

With the Sabaki Challenge, the rules are much more relaxed and actually designed to facilitate sabaki but that format brings it's own set of problems as we both already agreed on. There is more to be wary of but most competitors are trained and prepared to defend against the "less limited" use of the sabaki technique. Because of the rules, I think we may see more attempts at doing it in some form or fashion but very rarely with success. Same with most knockdown competitions for that matter. We may see some attempts at the footwork from close range to get to an opponent's side but the success rate does not match the rate of attempts. I'm sure this is why I hear (and read on the internet) many people say that they see little to no difference at all between Ashihara, Enshin and the other knockdown competitions. When everyone in Enshin and Ashihara competitions make attempts at and simultaneously defend the same thing nearly all the matches will resemble a typical knockdown rules competition.

It works just as easily in enshin/ashihara - the only reason you don't see it in those competitions is like you said in earlier posts (a) practitioners in enshin/ashihara are hip to it (basis of the style), (b) it's very easy to defend against, (c) everyone is always on the lookout for it and (d) you can only grab for a limited time so the most efficient way to score a sweep/throw is to successfully pull off sabaki - hence point (c) everyone knows it's coming so they are on high alert for it hence the range being slightly further out than knockdown.

Yeah, we can agree on this. And as we already agreed on, the further out in range one is, the more difficult it would be to pull of successfully.

In comparison to other arts where the distance is further out it is much harder to pull off - which was the point I'm making i.e. it's easier to pull off in knockdown & enshin/ashihara. Like if you took an enshin guy and put him in a ruleset where the distance is further out he'd find it much more difficult to pull off than he would in enshin.

Based on a couple of observations I have made, I think some people who have only trained in Enshin Karate and participated in the Sabaki Challenge for most of their Karate careers and then entered a different knockdown competition for the first time usually end up a little more lost than one would expect. I think it's a combination of tighter rules when it comes to grabbing and most of the other competitors knowing how to defend against the very limiting uses of sabaki attempts.

Here we can agree. I'd have no issue with it working much better in real life against someone who doesn't know what it is. Yes in knockdown the rules severely limit what you can do with it - I definitely agree - Kyokushin fighters would be a lot less gung-ho and aggressive if there was less limits on the sabaki - but even saying that though we've both seen lots of knockdown karateka pull off sabaki by quick lateral movements that you sometimes see - where for that split second they have the advantage - the only difference being they can only strike so theirs only so much you can do with it.

I completely agree.

Sweeps are allowed in Kudo. The reason you don't see much sabaki in Kudo is because the range/grappling makes it much harder to pull off. If you allowed grabbing as long as you want in Enshin - you'd have the same issue. It's very easy to stop sabaki in Kudo - you just secure a good grip on your opponents Gi to slow him down (and stop sabaki in the process), you just reset range or you initiate grappling. You can stomp in Kudo as well - as well as ground/pound - only difference is it's simulated to show dominance in that position (you don't stomp to hurt your opponent).

I didn't know sweeps are allowed in Kudo. I am specifically talking footsweeps or ashi waza. I don't think I have ever seen a footsweep in any of the Kudo competitions that I've watched and I've watched plenty. But I definitely agree with you on how easy it is to stop in the Kudo format especially if the person you are trying to use it on has a really good sense of balance.

But going back to knockdown and Sabaki Challenge competitions. There is one other reason, in fact the MAIN REASON we do not see much sabaki technique in these competitions regardless of the rules. That reason being that these competitors are smart enough to not focus so much of their energy on attempting to use it. If you become overly fixated on trying to perform any one technique (including the sabaki technique) you will set yourself up for defeat because you will miss other opportunities of attack and defense during the fight. Same thing goes for a real fight out on the pavement arena. If it's there and you are quick enough to capitalize on it so be it. But if it's not there then it's not there. And if it was there and you didn't capitalize on that split second opportunity it would be very, very foolish to try to force the issue and attempt it anyway. I've seen a few matches in the Sabaki Challenge where competitors seemed to be overly fixated on trying to pull off a sabaki technique and wind up putting themselves in bad predicaments during their match because of it.

I do think that the circumstances and no rules nature of a real fight allow one to use it much, much easier. I think the opportunities are more prevalent and present themselves much, much more than we will see in competitions. But again, I still say not to look specifically for that one particular technique. Focus on really destroying your opponent by whatever means is available.

Everything I'm pretty much in agreement with.

Same here.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Reminds me of Shifting.

God I love shifting. As primarily a grappler who really just wants to clinch without getting hit in MMA, shifting saves my ass so often because it just lets you cover so much ground. Double jab into a shifting right body hook, you can chase a lot of people down into a good clinch without taking much punishment.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Another thing to keep in mind; just because the Karate style you train and competitions you participate in encourage and facilitate the use of the sabaki technique does not mean that you have to do it. First of all, you have to be comfortable with it and you have to be confident at using it. And second of all (as I said earlier), being overly fixated on trying to do one thing during a fight (whatever that one thing may be and regardless if it's a competition or a fight for your life in the real world) is a dangerous and fool hearty thing to do.

As much as I like the potentials of the sabaki technique I am aware of it's limitations and the fact that it is not the solution to every situation a person will face in the heat of combat.

 

[Chungungo]

It's very easy to do most pretty much anything to a less experienced or untrained civilian. Most people panic when they're getting hit properly and they usually don't have a clue about any grappling. I'm not a Judo guy and have easily pulled off o-soto-gari's to untrained idiots.

Sabaki is ok, but as Azam said when you're in that sort of range you can be vulnerable to head attacks and getting grappled. And I don't see how you'd apply Sabaki at a longer range.

Well we are talking about sabaki here and you can grapple first or headbutt if you want but the principle works and of course is a close range weapon.

I agree. I've learned from personal experience how super easy it is to get into the blind spot of a less experienced opponent. Sabaki (or tai sabaki as you referred to) is not the answer for everything when it comes to combat but it does come in handy when the opportunity is there and you're able to capitalize on it.

Like everything but we were talking about sabaki here so I gave my example.-

 

[biscuitsbrah]

God I love shifting. As primarily a grappler who really just wants to clinch without getting hit in MMA, shifting saves my ass so often because it just lets you cover so much ground. Double jab into a shifting right body hook, you can chase a lot of people down into a good clinch without taking much punishment.

Shifting is so amazing and it seems so rare from where im from. You can move forwards so much faster than they can move backwards its awesome.

Btw, you step with a body punch?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Shifting is so amazing and it seems so rare from where im from. You can move forwards so much faster than they can move backwards its awesome.

Btw, you step with a body punch?

Absolutely. My striking is all for MMA, and I'm primarily a grappler with a Judo background, so what I really want to do is punch an underhook as I close the distance. So I'll throw double jab and if his hands come up I'll throw a long right body hook with a slight dip of my head and shift on the punch. It's something I stole from Roberto Duran. The key for making it work for me was not stepping so much on the punch as throwing the punch hard and letting the momentum carry me into a stance change. It can be a hard punch in addition to facilitating the stance switch.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Absolutely. My striking is all for MMA, and I'm primarily a grappler with a Judo background, so what I really want to do is punch an underhook as I close the distance. So I'll throw double jab and if his hands come up I'll throw a long right body hook with a slight dip of my head and shift on the punch. It's something I stole from Roberto Duran. The key for making it work for me was not stepping so much on the punch as throwing the punch hard and letting the momentum carry me into a stance change. It can be a hard punch in addition to facilitating the stance switch.

Ah I see. Ive never done a hard punch like that without getting too off balance. Might try something like that out

 

[ARIZE]

You can also try to counter your opponents jab with a jab while you slip to your right, then switching with a body hook.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Ah I see. Ive never done a hard punch like that without getting too off balance. Might try something like that out

The trick is to just throw the punch normally, don't reach, just throw it with your feet under you without trying to step but shift more weight to your lead foot and instead of retracting your hand let the momentum carry you through to the opposite stance and clinch up. Even if the punch is blocked your should be able to get into a clinch.

 

[Azam]

Shifting is very common in traditional martial arts especially in Karate. Although in Karate it's more of a slide than a walk as you punch/kick whilst changing stance.

Oi Tsuki is good example of what shifting is like in Karate (it's demonstrated in the video below). I think the reason why there is a slide is because in Karate a stable connection with the ground is always stressed. If you watch any of the top karate instructors like Masao Kagawa, Kanazawa et al - they all stress being stable & connected to the floor as you move.

I think though shifting only works well if you're ambidextrous when it comes to working optimally out of orthodox or southpaw. I think most styles of Karate do a very good job of teaching you to be ambidextrous - I know I constantly stance switch myself and I owe it to training in Karate.

This video below demonstrates oi tsuki which literally means thrusting/lunging punch (shift) and tai sabaki from the outside being done to counter it: