arm triangle gable or s grip?

RNC grip. If they have a skinny neck, I'll get onto my toes and drive my shoulder into their throat while tip toeing away from their hips.
 
Neither. If I have to choose between the 2 I pick gable. But I like to grab the wrist of my choking hand it’s easier to adjust the choke. Comprido taught me that choke a few years ago.
 
S-grip with the choking arm palm-up is my jam, lets me pull it tighter and get my elbow post further away with the same motion.

Second this. It also gives me enough mobility to drive up and through their neck with my chest.

Edit: Actually I do the S-grip with the choking arm palm down because I feel like it aligns my shoulder for better pressure.
 
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what do you think is tighter works better? i feel tis easier to get my elbow and grip parallel with an s grip and walk clockwise to finish but i wonder if gable is tighter since the grip has less space

so which grip do you prefer? larger guys with big necks will usually tap with even a rnc grip but smaller guys with tiny necks who "answer the phone" takes a good 10 to 15 seconds before i can get them to tap


To give a more detailed answer, two of the finest arm triangles i've seen to date actually happened quite recently in succession at Bellator 197 and 198, by Michael Chandler and Ryan Gracie. I would put them up with the one done by Roger Gracie a few years ago vs Michal Pasternak.






A key commonality of all of them is the use of the leg for an important principle i call making a 'ratchet'; something that makes the pressure you put into a certain area 'stick', rather than diffuse by their body simply moving with it. Here, it is wedging your foot or knee under their hip, pushing their body one way while you push into their neck the other way, while also preventing them from turning in and recovering half guard.

With regards to 'answering the phone' defenses, my view on this involves another concept i call 'arm capture'; him putting his hand in like that, actually gives you the opportunity to capture it, incorporating into your own hold, ironically turning his hold into something that works for you instead. As soon as you grab his hand, all of a sudden, it stops reducing pressure, and turns into even greater pressure and control, stopping him from turning any which way.

It looks a lot like set ups for the arm triangle americana/top wrist lock, only you keep the head wrap arm in place gripping his hand, going over with the other arm to keep it locked.

If you have subscriptions to Braulio Estima's site he does these forms of arm capture with side chokes in live rolls; there may be other users out there but i haven't seen other examples on video heretofore.
 
To give a more detailed answer, two of the finest arm triangles i've seen to date actually happened quite recently in succession at Bellator 197 and 198, by Michael Chandler and Ryan Gracie. I would put them up with the one done by Roger Gracie a few years ago vs Michal Pasternak.






A key commonality of all of them is the use of the leg for an important principle i call making a 'ratchet'; something that makes the pressure you put into a certain area 'stick', rather than diffuse by their body simply moving with it. Here, it is wedging your foot or knee under their hip, pushing their body one way while you push into their neck the other way, while also preventing them from turning in and recovering half guard.

With regards to 'answering the phone' defenses, my view on this involves another concept i call 'arm capture'; him putting his hand in like that, actually gives you the opportunity to capture it, incorporating into your own hold, ironically turning his hold into something that works for you instead. As soon as you grab his hand, all of a sudden, it stops reducing pressure, and turns into even greater pressure and control, stopping him from turning any which way.

It looks a lot like set ups for the arm triangle americana/top wrist lock, only you keep the head wrap arm in place gripping his hand, going over with the other arm to keep it locked.

If you have subscriptions to Braulio Estima's site he does these forms of arm capture with side chokes in live rolls; there may be other users out there but i haven't seen other examples on video heretofore.



i wish i could see some examples of what your showing ryan hall and others say u shouldnt have to squeeze at all when doing an arm triangle but when a guy makes the phone frame i feel i have to squeeze through it to get the tap and im fatigued i dont wana have to gas my arms ever on a choke
 
i wish i could see some examples of what your showing ryan hall and others say u shouldnt have to squeeze at all when doing an arm triangle but when a guy makes the phone frame i feel i have to squeeze through it to get the tap and im fatigued i dont wana have to gas my arms ever on a choke
If you really project your weight into their armpit to drive their shoulder into the side of their neck then you shouldn’t have to squeeze quite as hard through their phone defense. There are examples of braulio Estima doing this a lot on his Estima in action website.
 
i wish i could see some examples of what your showing ryan hall and others say u shouldnt have to squeeze at all when doing an arm triangle but when a guy makes the phone frame i feel i have to squeeze through it to get the tap and im fatigued i dont wana have to gas my arms ever on a choke

In my experience, you’ll have to squeeze at some point, if the person is defending..., telephone or another defense when the defender is fighting to create space, you will automatically counter by squeezing, other ways he’ll push you off and create space...this doesn’t mean you should only squeeze, keep adjusting your position by driving your weight forward and pushing his shoulder into the arteries, the squeeze is more to stay on him and not giving him space than to finish the choke...

There’s a vid on the top of this thread by Seth, hE is Ryan’s student, it’s exactly the same move Ryan shows in his dvd
 
I never squeeze (or rarely) and most of the time can finish without a grip at all, even against larger guys.
My sequence....
1-Choking arm elbow all the way to the mat
2- S grip choking arm palm down
3-Straight line from choking elbow through the grip to the non choking elbow
4-the line is roughly perpendicular to the neck (also why i do not like gable grip, no straight line)
5- hips flat
6- project upper body into opponents shoulder
7- turn opponents head away from mine roughly temple to temple

ignore answering the phone it wont stop this sequence but it does slow it down for a few seconds

all choke no crank
 
In my experience, you’ll have to squeeze at some point, if the person is defending..., telephone or another defense when the defender is fighting to create space, you will automatically counter by squeezing, other ways he’ll push you off and create space...this doesn’t mean you should only squeeze, keep adjusting your position by driving your weight forward and pushing his shoulder into the arteries, the squeeze is more to stay on him and not giving him space than to finish the choke...

There’s a vid on the top of this thread by Seth, hE is Ryan’s student, it’s exactly the same move Ryan shows in his dvd
Ryan's claimed a few times that Seth has the better arm triangle out of them.

I also agree that the grip basically don't matter unless it's more comfortable or does a better job of sticking you to your opponent. Half the time against people my size I can finish without even using the second arm as long as i've thoroughly gotten under their tricep.
 


i think this is a solid vid on finishing good guys good people are going to turn away to create space with there shoulder which makes this work well anyone use this finish?
 


i think this is a solid vid on finishing good guys good people are going to turn away to create space with there shoulder which makes this work well anyone use this finish?



I was going to post that video actually lol.

Another good principle i like that applies to this situation; emphasize the essence.

Common rule of thumb for toe holds is point his toe towards his butt. Observe the dynamic that motion participates in, and emphasize it even further, to optimize effectiveness.

Common rule of thumb for arm triangles is make sure your choking elbow is flat on the ground. Seeing what this accomplishes and emphasizing it even further; make sure his near side shoulder is lifted off the ground to better maximize pressure pushing his neck and shoulder together.

It's like increasing pressure in scarfhold; if your ass is resting on the ground, your weight is going into the ground rather than into his sternum. But if you lift yourself up, even by the slightest bit, barely enough to fit a paper sheet under, that makes a magical transformation, just the same whether it's by 1 degree or 45 degrees. That whole space in between would be your 'operating envelope', for adjusting and stabilizing to keep him pinned while keeping pressure.
 
I was going to post that video actually lol.

Another good principle i like that applies to this situation; emphasize the essence.

Common rule of thumb for toe holds is point his toe towards his butt. Observe the dynamic that motion participates in, and emphasize it even further, to optimize effectiveness.

Common rule of thumb for arm triangles is make sure your choking elbow is flat on the ground. Seeing what this accomplishes and emphasizing it even further; make sure his near side shoulder is lifted off the ground to better maximize pressure pushing his neck and shoulder together.

It's like increasing pressure in scarfhold; if your ass is resting on the ground, your weight is going into the ground rather than into his sternum. But if you lift yourself up, even by the slightest bit, barely enough to fit a paper sheet under, that makes a magical transformation, just the same whether it's by 1 degree or 45 degrees. That whole space in between would be your 'operating envelope', for adjusting and stabilizing to keep him pinned while keeping pressure.

i just wana make sure my subs are as close to perfect as i can get i see guys in mma get to a sub and cant finish the guy and its a bit depressing it takes so much to even get the fight to the ground nowadays to even get to that sub then u cant finish?

i got saulos book in 2009 when i was a blue and took his advice from blue to work on positioning my guard at purple and passing at brown and at black si when you try to perfect subs i use to think that was silly cause the sub is the easy part getting to it is the issue but not true at lower levels yeah guys panic tap but once you start to fight purples and above give them an inch and they take mile fighting higher level belts i only worked 3 subs triangles and head and arm chokes off my back i use to try to create scrambles to open up arms and necks cause good guys are gonna have solid defense and i was to add to take my time
 
i just wana make sure my subs are as close to perfect as i can get i see guys in mma get to a sub and cant finish the guy and its a bit depressing it takes so much to even get the fight to the ground nowadays to even get to that sub then u cant finish?

i got saulos book in 2009 when i was a blue and took his advice from blue to work on positioning my guard at purple and passing at brown and at black si when you try to perfect subs i use to think that was silly cause the sub is the easy part getting to it is the issue but not true at lower levels yeah guys panic tap but once you start to fight purples and above give them an inch and they take mile fighting higher level belts i only worked 3 subs triangles and head and arm chokes off my back i use to try to create scrambles to open up arms and necks cause good guys are gonna have solid defense and i was to add to take my time

the problem with robs video is not the pressure, sure as hell he will drive through any difense the problem is getting there, the reason why we havent seen anyone doing this type of choke must do with the guy escaping before you can re adjust...

All you need man is to follow ryans and seth advice, also braulio... youll be fine.
 
Another example of a great arm triangle by one of my favorite fighters outside the ufc, Marat Gafurov, displaying many of the things mentioned in previous posts. In particular, wedging the near leg under the hip to create a bow/ratchet, using structure to increase pressure.

 
I use the karate chop grip that Hall shows in his video.
 
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