- Joined
- May 19, 2017
- Messages
- 1,606
- Reaction score
- 0
Hoda Fadel - not really from South America, but I can't help myself posting her pic.
Are there any top tier Dutch kickboxers who have successfully incorporated true Muay Thai?
- Thread starter emax
- Start date
Hoda Fadel - not really from South America, but I can't help myself posting her pic.
- Joined
- May 19, 2017
- Messages
- 1,606
- Reaction score
- 0
Oops wrong thread
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,889
- Reaction score
- 241
even if they scored the same, he still lost by a wide margin in most of his fights.
- Joined
- May 19, 2017
- Messages
- 1,606
- Reaction score
- 0
I doubt it, politics always involved in Thailand when a Farang faces a local Champion.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2016
- Messages
- 1,487
- Reaction score
- 0
And if Dekkers lost all his fights in Thailand on the scorecards because punches score so much less, then how did he revolutionize the game by getting the Thais to all fight more like him? Wouldn't fighting more like Dekkers mean increasing your chances of losing fights on the scorecard, as well? This whole Dekkers narrative is so derpy that you don't even have to watch the fights to know that it isn't true.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2016
- Messages
- 130
- Reaction score
- 2
What do you mean you doubt it? Just watch the fights and see, you don't have to doubt anything.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,889
- Reaction score
- 241
dumbest shit I've heard, especially after the international Rajadamnern card that just happened.
what fights are you talking about exactly? Orono, Sangtiennoi, Jomhod played with Dekkers.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 6,714
- Reaction score
- 1,903
I hear this alot on sherdog about dekkers loosing to the thais, which is true, but one thing to take into consideration, is that his losses were decisions, and the politics/bureaucracy in thailand at the time, was that if he didnt ko them, he would loose. Meaning anytime it went to a decision, they would give it to the thai. Not trying to start a huge debate about it, but it is something to consider, dekkers said these words himself.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 6,714
- Reaction score
- 1,903
seen a superman punch here and there, and a few of those flicky teep type kicks to the face.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 2,846
- Reaction score
- 48
so what about all the thais gambling on the fight, they happily accepted losing money so their countryman got the win? Outside the stadiums you may have a point, just may though! In the stadiums no way! Dekkers said those words so must be true then, no fighter ever has been unable to accept decisions going against them right?!?!?!
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2016
- Messages
- 130
- Reaction score
- 2
"teep type kicks"
it's right there in front of you man
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 6,714
- Reaction score
- 1,903
i said teep type kicks because i dont know what they are called. They are not teeps though, they are that flicky foot to the chin type kick.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 6,714
- Reaction score
- 1,903
The way things are today, are not how they were in dekkers time.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 6,714
- Reaction score
- 1,903
you may have a point, assuming the majority of thais were betting on Dekkers.
many things can be debated, what if this, what if that........what if the majority of the thais placing bets were betting on their countryman? So Dekkers losing meant they made money rather then lost.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2013
- Messages
- 7,813
- Reaction score
- 1,428
@shincheckin if a thai fought like Dekkers, he would lose aswell
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 2,846
- Reaction score
- 48
thats not how it works though, the thais in the stadiums bet amongst themselves, so for every Thai placing a bet on Dekkers opponent they would have to have that bet with a Thai betting on Dekkers, back then there was no where near the amount of foreigners in the stadiums as there are now and the amount of foreigners actually betting on the fights would be minuscule amounts compared to the Thai's betting amongst themselves.
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 8,712
- Reaction score
- 1,412
There was very little exposure to MT in those days and foreigners simply didn't understand the scoring. Dekkers' losses look exactly the same as Westerners today who do no research on MT and get surprised when they lose a decision. Walk forward whiffing on punches while getting teeped the whole time and you will lose, whether youre Thai or not, whether its today or the 90s.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,889
- Reaction score
- 241
there is nothing to consider. the fights are on youtube. look them up and see he is talking out of his ass.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2010
- Messages
- 2,178
- Reaction score
- 50
Since I'm at work I'll use this thread to ramble...
I second the Sergio Wielzen comment, Lucien carbin has a very different style from other gyms, closer to Thai style because it uses all weapons and they clinch (well, in their own way), but as far as fighting objectives it has a different focus and the movement has strong influences from Savate, Judo, Karate etc. Also they still fight under local Dutch rules so that's a big influencer. I'd also throw Mohamed Khamal in there as well, but all of these guys are still under the "wanting/trying to emulate Thai style" category.
As far as Dutch guys who have fought Thais, my hands-down favorite has to be Ivan Hippolyte, still not a "Thai" style, but very good fighter.
I started out doing Dutch style kickboxing under a legit trainer in the midwest of the united states more than 10 years ago, then started "Authentic" Muay Thai after moving to the West coast/Asia. Honestly I'd say these styles don't mix too well. The fight habits and goals contradict eachother and are hard to break out of or do both at the same time if you've been doing one longer than the other.
Dutch vs. Muay Thai:
-Lower, bouncy, sometimes in and out style footwork with high energy bursts of fast combinations. Difficult to have a grounded enough stance to throw up a high Muay Thai style leg block or maintan general balance which is hugely important in Muay Thai scoring. Stumbling all over the place, losing your balance and falling on your butt isn't such a big thing in Dutch KB as long as you are busy and aggressive. Muay Thai has a more careful type of footwork, which keeps you in a position to always check and always be able to throw a hard kick and transition into an effective clinch when the gap is closed.
-Hand position in Dutch kickboxing allows you to fire off punch combos much quicker/harder and in higher numbers than Muay Thai. Dutch KB holds their gloves closer to their face, Muay Thai has the arms out measuring their range and ready to go straight into clinch or execute/block an elbow when the gap closes, it doesn't feel good or effective to throw a long combo with your arms slightly flared and in a Muay Thai "long" guard.
-Dutch has LOTS of punches, combinations reach up to 6+ count, if head punching is the actual cake, then body punching and lowkicks are the frosting and body/high kicks/knees are the sprinkles on top. In Muay Thai you may put someone away with effective punches, but they won't score much if you don't.
-ARM BLOCKS, shin kicks are blocked with both arms, sometimes with a side-step, or circling around, and the automatic return technique is a hard punch combination. Low checks are a practiced technique for lowkicks, but due to the close range and pace often fighters will take a lowkick to deliver a punch combo. If a lowkick is thrown from far away it might get checked, so the amount of unchecked kicks in dutch KB is pretty high. Alot of people just stuff them with their leg and move forward. In Muay Thai you either block with the leg, catch, or do an evasive technique like a "lean back", arm blocks are a last resort because getting kicked in the arm is a point for the other guy.
-Very low teep use because of emphasis on head-to-head fighting rather than keeping your opponent under "range control" like in Muay Thai. Teeps are almost an afterthought. Teeps are often thrown as an attack snapped straight into the gut or the head more than as a defense like in Muay Thai. In Muay Thai teeps are important to keep your opponent in range to score hard kicks.
-Knees/flying knees are often aimed to the head and have a higher percentage of landing compared to Muay Thai due to how fighters get low in boxing exchanges and throw more bodyshots compared to the tall, more careful/methodical Muay Thai stance. Knees to body also thrown, but not a huge priority due to scoring rewards. In Muay Thai clinch knees to the body are life, basically. Letting a knee to the body go unanswered could cost you a fight.
-Leg catching techniques are eliminated and are forbidden under most rulesets, you either block or parry away someone's kick and come back with a combo which changes the pace of fights alot. In Muay Thai you can often trap/hold someone's leg for quite a while if they leave it out there for you then sweep, throw or counter, you can play rough a lot more in Muay Thai as far as this goes.
-Head movement, angles, misdirection not really emphasized in Dutch KB as much as Muay Thai. Often as a basic stance a shell/peekaboo tactic is employed that relies on using the gloves to block your head. Muay Thai likes to keep to teeps, parries, angles and slipping (not ducking/rolling) and blocking with the arms/elbows rather than blocking with the gloves.
-Main goal in most Dutch KB contests is to KO your opponent as soon as you can or make alot of points with lowkicks and punches (the two lowest scoring techniques in traditional Muay Thai) regardless of power. The pace and approach in Kyokushin Karate fights are similar to Dutch KB, which makes sense because KK is Dutch KB's root art. Muay Thai fighters tend to fight with the assumption that they are going to fight the whole 5 rounds, it can be boring, but it's very tactical and intelligent as well.
-Some obvious things: 3x3 rounds (5x3 title fights) one minute rest. No elbows, clinch rules vary widely but clinch fighting is generally viewed as stalling so it's minimized as much as possible similar to the views in western boxing. Though there are guys that will use clinch as a chance to be as rough as they can. In Thailand it's 5x3 and there are 2-minute rests between rounds, outside of Thailand the rest is 1-minute.
I second the Sergio Wielzen comment, Lucien carbin has a very different style from other gyms, closer to Thai style because it uses all weapons and they clinch (well, in their own way), but as far as fighting objectives it has a different focus and the movement has strong influences from Savate, Judo, Karate etc. Also they still fight under local Dutch rules so that's a big influencer. I'd also throw Mohamed Khamal in there as well, but all of these guys are still under the "wanting/trying to emulate Thai style" category.
As far as Dutch guys who have fought Thais, my hands-down favorite has to be Ivan Hippolyte, still not a "Thai" style, but very good fighter.
I started out doing Dutch style kickboxing under a legit trainer in the midwest of the united states more than 10 years ago, then started "Authentic" Muay Thai after moving to the West coast/Asia. Honestly I'd say these styles don't mix too well. The fight habits and goals contradict eachother and are hard to break out of or do both at the same time if you've been doing one longer than the other.
Dutch vs. Muay Thai:
-Lower, bouncy, sometimes in and out style footwork with high energy bursts of fast combinations. Difficult to have a grounded enough stance to throw up a high Muay Thai style leg block or maintan general balance which is hugely important in Muay Thai scoring. Stumbling all over the place, losing your balance and falling on your butt isn't such a big thing in Dutch KB as long as you are busy and aggressive. Muay Thai has a more careful type of footwork, which keeps you in a position to always check and always be able to throw a hard kick and transition into an effective clinch when the gap is closed.
-Hand position in Dutch kickboxing allows you to fire off punch combos much quicker/harder and in higher numbers than Muay Thai. Dutch KB holds their gloves closer to their face, Muay Thai has the arms out measuring their range and ready to go straight into clinch or execute/block an elbow when the gap closes, it doesn't feel good or effective to throw a long combo with your arms slightly flared and in a Muay Thai "long" guard.
-Dutch has LOTS of punches, combinations reach up to 6+ count, if head punching is the actual cake, then body punching and lowkicks are the frosting and body/high kicks/knees are the sprinkles on top. In Muay Thai you may put someone away with effective punches, but they won't score much if you don't.
-ARM BLOCKS, shin kicks are blocked with both arms, sometimes with a side-step, or circling around, and the automatic return technique is a hard punch combination. Low checks are a practiced technique for lowkicks, but due to the close range and pace often fighters will take a lowkick to deliver a punch combo. If a lowkick is thrown from far away it might get checked, so the amount of unchecked kicks in dutch KB is pretty high. Alot of people just stuff them with their leg and move forward. In Muay Thai you either block with the leg, catch, or do an evasive technique like a "lean back", arm blocks are a last resort because getting kicked in the arm is a point for the other guy.
-Very low teep use because of emphasis on head-to-head fighting rather than keeping your opponent under "range control" like in Muay Thai. Teeps are almost an afterthought. Teeps are often thrown as an attack snapped straight into the gut or the head more than as a defense like in Muay Thai. In Muay Thai teeps are important to keep your opponent in range to score hard kicks.
-Knees/flying knees are often aimed to the head and have a higher percentage of landing compared to Muay Thai due to how fighters get low in boxing exchanges and throw more bodyshots compared to the tall, more careful/methodical Muay Thai stance. Knees to body also thrown, but not a huge priority due to scoring rewards. In Muay Thai clinch knees to the body are life, basically. Letting a knee to the body go unanswered could cost you a fight.
-Leg catching techniques are eliminated and are forbidden under most rulesets, you either block or parry away someone's kick and come back with a combo which changes the pace of fights alot. In Muay Thai you can often trap/hold someone's leg for quite a while if they leave it out there for you then sweep, throw or counter, you can play rough a lot more in Muay Thai as far as this goes.
-Head movement, angles, misdirection not really emphasized in Dutch KB as much as Muay Thai. Often as a basic stance a shell/peekaboo tactic is employed that relies on using the gloves to block your head. Muay Thai likes to keep to teeps, parries, angles and slipping (not ducking/rolling) and blocking with the arms/elbows rather than blocking with the gloves.
-Main goal in most Dutch KB contests is to KO your opponent as soon as you can or make alot of points with lowkicks and punches (the two lowest scoring techniques in traditional Muay Thai) regardless of power. The pace and approach in Kyokushin Karate fights are similar to Dutch KB, which makes sense because KK is Dutch KB's root art. Muay Thai fighters tend to fight with the assumption that they are going to fight the whole 5 rounds, it can be boring, but it's very tactical and intelligent as well.
-Some obvious things: 3x3 rounds (5x3 title fights) one minute rest. No elbows, clinch rules vary widely but clinch fighting is generally viewed as stalling so it's minimized as much as possible similar to the views in western boxing. Though there are guys that will use clinch as a chance to be as rough as they can. In Thailand it's 5x3 and there are 2-minute rests between rounds, outside of Thailand the rest is 1-minute.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2010
- Messages
- 2,178
- Reaction score
- 50
That being said Dutch KB is waaaaayy more entertaining for the general public to watch than most MT fights (unless you're a snob/hipster/geek like me), because of the purposeful disregard for defense in exchange for getting that KO. High risk, high reward.
The only thing is that guys like Keaw and Sitthichai easily exploit this style by stopping any boxing action/advancement with stifling teeps/bodykicks/straight punches.
The only thing is that guys like Keaw and Sitthichai easily exploit this style by stopping any boxing action/advancement with stifling teeps/bodykicks/straight punches.
Last edited:
