Are there any DC fans who admit to Jon Jones being the better fighter ?

[IamStryker]

But you are kind of highlighting why it is ridiculous to dismiss an entire career like Jones. Because during his entire championship run he has zero failed tests. He didn’t fail anything. And there are men on his resume that are known cheaters. It was basically the wild wild West during that time. Now his biggest fuck up is not cleaning up his act when the test had got more severe. That’s why he is in the spot that he is in. He completely screwed it all up.

I see the point that you are making. Jones was cheating and he beat other cheaters. Jones is very very good. I'm not really dismissing his entire career. I'm dismissing the idea that he is definitely better than everyone he beat while cheating. He needs to fight people clean before we can draw that conclusion. He could still be the best ever but at this point it's a hard argument to make when he was clearly cheating. Not just on the way to the title but through his title defenses as well.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

He didn't lose to a better fighter, he lost to a cheat, those fights don't count.

So do none of Anderson Silva’s fights count? Fedor?? It seems to me in terms of all time legendary greatness people pull the performance enhancing drug card when it suits them. We have guys on that list that competed in a time with no drug testing. But we say oh yeah they are the best of all time.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

I see the point that you are making. Jones was cheating and he beat other cheaters. Jones is very very good. I'm not really dismissing his entire career. I'm dismissing the idea that he is definitely better than everyone he beat while cheating. He needs to fight people clean before we can draw that conclusion. He could still be the best ever but at this point it's a hard argument to make when he was clearly cheating. Not just on the way to the title but through his title defenses as well.

He must come back to the sport and find a way to dominate and do it clean. Or at least be presented as clean by the current testing organization. I agree he needs to do that.

 

[Arm Barbarian]

So do none of Anderson Silva’s fights count? Fedor?? It seems to me in terms of all time legendary greatness people pull the performance enhancing drug card when it suits them. We have guys on that list that competed in a time with no drug testing. But we say oh yeah they are the best of all time.

Anderson? Yes. His entire career, just like Jons, has a giant * next to it now.

Failed MORE than once for PEDs, just like Jon.

Barnett as well.

Fedor has never failed a test and broken the rules, as far as I know.

 

[AimedWithV]

So do none of Anderson Silva’s fights count? Fedor?? It seems to me in terms of all time legendary greatness people pull the performance enhancing drug card when it suits them. We have guys on that list that competed in a time with no drug testing. But we say oh yeah they are the best of all time.

Anderson Silva - definitely, he's in Jones' and Lance Armstrong group.

And what about Fedor again?

 

[Dbreiden83080]

Anderson? Yes. His entire career, just like Jons, has a giant * next to it now.

Failed MORE than once for PEDs, just like Jon.

Barnett as well.

Ok what about Fedor? Japan was literally the wild wild West during that time. They didn’t care what the hell you were doing.

 

[Arm Barbarian]

Ok what about Fedor? Japan was literally the wild wild West during that time. They didn’t care what the hell you were doing.

If it was allowed for all, then it was a level playing field.

Fedor never got caught cheating against others following the rules.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

Anderson Silva - definitely, he's in Jones' and Lance Armstrong group.

And what about Fedor again?

Pride Literally had it written into the contract that you could take steroids. They didn’t give a shit. It’s the same as Jones. In fact it’s worse than Jones. Because nobody was testing for anything.

 

[AimedWithV]

Pride Literally had it written into the contract that you could take steroids. They didn’t give a shit. It’s the same as Jones. In fact it’s worse than Jones. Because nobody was testing for anything.

Was it mandatory in Pride to take steroids?

 

[Lots]

They’re both great fighters but Jon is a horrible match up for DC.

I’d say DC has the more decorated resume now.

So many of Jons wins have an asterisk next to them for me. Fighting older guys, middleweights, size advantages, dirty tactics, possibly steroids.

Not too mention the refusal to fight heavyweight when he’d still have advantages over most fighters in the class.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

If it was allowed for all, then it was a level playing field.

Fedor never got caught cheating against others following the rules.

This is where you and I will butt heads. Because to me it was a level playing field for Jones. Not in the last few years but when he was champion and on top. Because he competed against and dominated known cheaters. Everyone is suspect. Just like in Japan during that time. It’s quite clear most were cheating.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

Was it mandatory in Pride to take steroids?

Basically yes. When you say they can do it pretty much everyone will do it. That has been proven in every single professional sport.

 

[Arm Barbarian]

This is where you and I will butt heads. Because to me it was a level playing field for Jones. Not in the last few years but when he was champion and on top. Because he competed against and dominated known cheaters. Everyone is suspect. Just like in Japan during that time. It’s quite clear most were cheating.

If they didn't fail under the rules, then no.

There is no PROOF any of them were using, and / or cheating.

There IS proof Jon has been using, and cheating. Not once, either.

HE keeps getting caught - THEY, not so much.

 

[AimedWithV]

Basically yes. When you say they can do it pretty much everyone will do it. That has been proven in every single professional sport.

Oh. Conspiracy theories, I like those!

What's next? Earth is flat? 9/11 is an inside job? Holocaust denial?

Go on, tinfoil hat, go on.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

Oh. Conspiracy theories, I like those!

What's next? Earth is flat? 9/11 is an inside job? Holocaust denial?

Go on, tinfoil hat, go on.

If you want to stick your head in the sandbox and act like professional athletes that had a greenlight did Not cheat. Go right ahead. You are completely living in denial.

Did Jones ever fail a single test before this advanced testing? Did he? He was going up against more legit testing than anyone ever did in Japan. Think about it.

 

[Brit_Brawler]

Are there any jones fans that can admit that he cheated blatantly in the second fight and most likely the first ?

 

[Dbreiden83080]

Are there any jones fans that can admit that he cheated blatantly in the second fight and most likely the first ?

The second one absolutely. However the advanced testing didn’t catch him for anything until after.. So the process itself is kind of fucked up. Why was he allowed to compete? They had one year to catch up and couldn’t find anything.

 

[AimedWithV]

If you want to stick your head in the sandbox and act like professional athletes that had a greenlight did Not cheat. Go right ahead. You are completely living in denial.

Some of them? Yes, probably. ALL of them? Sorry, my tinfoil hat stayed at home.

Did Jones ever fail a single test before this advanced testing? Did he? He was going up against more legit testing than anyone ever did in Japan. Think about it.

That really doesn't matter. There has always been testing , on one level of another.
The difference between a cheater and non-cheater that cheater fully intends to cheat. Therefore, the mark is on ALL Jones' career.
That's exactly why Lance Armstrong is in the position he's now, sport legacy wise.

 

[Arm Barbarian]

The second one absolutely. However the advanced testing didn’t catch him for anything until after.. So the process itself is kind of fucked up. Why was he allowed to compete? They had one year to catch up and couldn’t find anything.

They did though.

They found inconsistencies in his T / E ratios prior to the original DC fight.

Victor Conte said his readings were, "Highly Suspicious."

Didn't nab him for steroids outright, but they were highly suspicious he was up to no good / cheating.

DCs were fucked as well, but they stayed consistent as opposed to Jons. They didn't set off the same alarm bells.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

Some of them? Yes, probably. ALL of them? Sorry, my tinfoil hat stayed at home.



That really doesn't matter. There has always been testing , on one level of another.
The difference between a cheater and non-cheater that cheater fully intends to cheat. Therefore, the mark is on ALL Jones' career.
That's exactly why Lance Armstrong is in the position he's now, sport legacy wise.

WRONG

In Japan there was no testing of any kind. You could do any fucking thing that you wanted to do in terms of performance enhancers. So I don’t want to hear from you or anyone that anybody that competed in Japan is the best of all time. Because they were all likely taking some bullshit. Nobody was being tested. Come on man.