Are Kelly Pavlik and Jermain Taylor Hall of Famers

[XThe GreatestX]

Interesting question imo

I personally dont think Pavlik is. He has two wins over Taylor which are nice but his run of dominance was short. He got destroyed by B-Hop ( no shame there). But what else did he do? I guess if you hold Edison Miranda in high regard maybe theres a case. But to me hes not a hall of famer


Taylor is tougher. For me hes on the cups.
Two great wins over B-Hop
Win over Cory Spinks
Win over Raul Marquez
Win over Sam Soliman- Not that impressive but Taylor was deranged at that point and still won so i dunno.
Win over a shot Jeff Lacy

Draw with Winky- Take that however you want

But the man has been knocked out so much
Ko'd by Pavlik
Ko'd by Froch
Ko'd by Abraham

And theres a case that he didn't win either B-Hop fight and also lost the Spinks fight

He also has the personal stuff outside the ring. I dont know if voters will like that


thoughts?

 

[Seano]

Probably yes. Taylor for sure, he was a good amateur and a pretty dominant MW for a while.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

Taylor should make it just fine. 2 win's over Bhop seals it, at that time those wins meant something, too. I get why you say you're on the fence about Pavlik though, OP. It's iffy in my eyes, too. Maybe I just need to know more context of Ghost's career...

 

[ironfist05]

taylor maybe, pavlik no

 

[JayE]

Not even really close. Taylor's resume is an old Joppy, drawish wins over Hopkins, and then a drawish win over Wright. No, that's ridiculous.

Pavlik has the Colombian whose name I can't remember and Taylor twice.

These aren't Hall of Fame fighters.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

Not even really close. Taylor's resume is an old Joppy, drawish wins over Hopkins, and then a drawish win over Wright. No, that's ridiculous.

Pavlik has the Colombian whose name I can't remember and Taylor twice.

These aren't Hall of Fame fighters.

beat Cory Spinks, Raul Marquez, and an old Lacy too. I dunno. I think Taylor is close tbh. Theres some HOF's in there that im not sure have Taylors resume.

Despite the drawish wins there still wins you know?

 

[JayE]

beat Cory Spinks, Raul Marquez, and an old Lacy too. I dunno. I think Taylor is close tbh. Theres some HOF's in there that im not sure have Taylors resume.

Despite the drawish wins there still wins you know?

In terms of HoF consideration, the wins need to be contextualized. They're the only wins that have any chance of getting him in. Spinks, (a WW who gets KO'd by Zab Judah) who isn't a notable win at MW, and Marquez, weren't close to good MWs, let alone great MWs. His win over Ouma meant more than both of those wins. His two very controversial wins over a 39 year old Hopkins are his only way in.

He has no chance and he's not remotely deserving.

 

[DaveDave]

He has no chance and he's not remotely deserving.

Whilst I agree with your argument & the substantive facts in the case, I would point out that almost everyone gets in the HoF, 'cos it's not as it were the Hall of Greatness; any US "TV fighter" is almost automatically included.

Barry McGuigan's in there, FFS. & although Barry had some better wins than JT (Laporte pisses all over Marquez & "Getting KO'd by Zab Judah" Spinks, Pedroza's a comparable win to Hopkins but achieved in a more dominant fashion in a better fight), I'd not say his career was exactly heaving with achievement, either...

 

[XThe GreatestX]

In terms of HoF consideration, the wins need to be contextualized. They're the only wins that have any chance of getting him in. Spinks, (a WW who gets KO'd by Zab Judah) who isn't a notable win at MW, and Marquez, weren't close to good MWs, let alone great MWs. His win over Ouma meant more than both of those wins. His two very controversial wins over a 39 year old Hopkins are his only way in.

He has no chance and he's not remotely deserving.

Yeah i get you. I have a pretty tough criteria for the hall tbh but I dunno. I think Pavlik probably won't get in, and shouldnt in my opinion. Some other people in this thread seem to think so though.

However you compare Taylor resume other hall of famers and its comparable. Hes certainly more accomplished than Gatti, probably Gushiken (although his induction is probably more due to his popularity in Japan), Mancini, and probably Palomino as well if were talking recent inductees.

He doesnt make my hall of fame probably, more of the hall of very good. But will he get in? I think so.

I think hes certainly more accomplished than someone like Genaro Hernandez who people were trying to debate me that should get in.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

Just another quick thing. Where do you guys land on Sergio Martinez? Because hes another guy where i think, probably doesn't make it in my hall of fame, but he will probably get in to the actual hall of fame

So than it becomes a question of if he gets in, why not Taylor?

Taylor certainly fought better competition, beat a bigger name and an ATG in Hopkins twice. Sergio has nothing like that.

Sergio spent his MW title reign beating Matthew Macklin, Martin Murray, Darren Barker and Chavez Jr. And if were putting wins into context its arguable that he even beat Martin Murray. And than Macklin fight was a pretty tough struggle for him against not that great of a fighter. Yes he has the KO win over Williams but is that really more impressive than beating B-Hop twice and fighting on even terms with a prime Winky Wright? I dont think so.

Yes i get Cory Spinks got ko'd by Zab Judah. But does that mean we act like he wasn't a pretty good fighter? he was the undisputed Welterweight Champion a two time 154 pound champion as well. Its not like Taylor was fighting a midget who had no skills in there.

And yet Sergio will probably get voted in by the committee when its his time. This makes me think Taylor probably will too. I wouldn't have them in mine though.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I would not put either in. Jermain, other then the Hopkins wins, which I think he lost the first and won the second, he did not really have dominant performances, and these non dominant performances were not against a great cast of characters. Pavlik really just has the ko of Taylor, and the win in the rematch. I mean, other than that? Edison Miranda? Defending the belt against Gary Lockett?

 

[Sunfish]

If sexy isn't in then these guys go home.

 

[DeJulez]

No to all of them.
Taylor has a small shot at it tho.

 

[Seano]

Not even really close. Taylor's resume is an old Joppy, drawish wins over Hopkins, and then a drawish win over Wright. No, that's ridiculous.

Pavlik has the Colombian whose name I can't remember and Taylor twice.

These aren't Hall of Fame fighters.

Pavlik has that Youngstown following, which was essentially enough to get Mancini in there.

Taylor has the resume though. He will get in. Maybe not first ballot but he gets in at some point, I think.

 

[ironfist05]

I would pick Sergio over both of these guys for the HOF, but yeah, I don't see Pavlik getting in. Taylor may have a shot but wasn't he nicknamed the "junior middleweight champion of the world" at one point because he was fighting so many guys coming up? That's not a good look

 

[Seano]

I would pick Sergio over both of these guys for the HOF, but yeah, I don't see Pavlik getting in. Taylor may have a shot but wasn't he nicknamed the "junior middleweight champion of the world" at one point because he was fighting so many guys coming up? That's not a good look

People didn't like Taylor because he stopped taking risks when he won the titles from Hopkins but I think his defenses were legitimate enough. If people like a fighter coming up, its celebrated when he fights guys from other weight classes.

If Taylor doesn't get in then I can't see how Golovkin would be HOF worthy either. His career is almost over and he just fought the first guy who was able to test him.

 

[ironfist05]

People didn't like Taylor because he stopped taking risks when he won the titles from Hopkins but I think his defenses were legitimate enough. If people like a fighter coming up, its celebrated when he fights guys from other weight classes.

If Taylor doesn't get in then I can't see how Golovkin would be HOF worthy either. His career is almost over and he just fought the first guy who was able to test him.

I think Taylor has a decent enough shot. I wouldn't be against it. End of the day, I think the Spinks win is better than given credit for, the Hopkins wins were big (even if I thought he lost at least one of them) and the Winky draw, controversial as it was, isn't something to sneeze at. Perhaps him coming back to take a title after his total mental collapse ought to be taken into account. Soliman is far from something special, but it's nice to see a sort of comeback, at least on paper.

As of now GGG has a ways to go before he's HOF worthy, like you said, he just barely beat the only guy with a legitimate chance at beating him. I'm hoping he gets a HOF worthy career, and I think he might be able to, but you're right, should he retire now, he'd be nowhere near HOF worthy.

There are greater MWs out there than any of these guys that aren't in the HOF yet, like Sumbu Kalambay, Nigel Benn and maybe Michael Nunn. Sergio is before both Pavlik and Taylor as well IMO. Not to mention a laundry list of 1. fighters from less recognized countries and 2. lower weight class fighters.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

I think Taylor has a decent enough shot. I wouldn't be against it. End of the day, I think the Spinks win is better than given credit for, the Hopkins wins were big (even if I thought he lost at least one of them) and the Winky draw, controversial as it was, isn't something to sneeze at. Perhaps him coming back to take a title after his total mental collapse ought to be taken into account. Soliman is far from something special, but it's nice to see a sort of comeback, at least on paper.

As of now GGG has a ways to go before he's HOF worthy, like you said, he just barely beat the only guy with a legitimate chance at beating him. I'm hoping he gets a HOF worthy career, and I think he might be able to, but you're right, should he retire now, he'd be nowhere near HOF worthy.

There are greater MWs out there than any of these guys that aren't in the HOF yet, like Sumbu Kalambay, Nigel Benn and maybe Michael Nunn. Sergio is before both Pavlik and Taylor as well IMO. Not to mention a laundry list of 1. fighters from less recognized countries and 2. lower weight class fighters.

Explain why you think Sergio before Taylor. I respect your opinion, but to me I would put Taylor before Sergio. Sergio spent his career defending his belt against the likes of Matthew Macklin and Martin Murray. And he had tough fights with those two. I get the paul williams ko was nice but its Paul Williams ya know? He did have a longer reign than Taylor but ill take quality over quantity

Taylor has wins over B-Hop an atg fighter. Sergio doesn't
Taylor draw with another atg in a prime Winky is impressive imo
Taylors win over Spinks is underated
Taylor also was deranged and still came back and beat Sam Soliman. Seriously he looks homicidal in this pic at the weigh ins and still won

He also has ok wins against Raul Marquez, Kassim Ouma and an old Jeff Lacy and William Joppy.

There are recent inductees into the hall like Gushiken, Mancini, Palomino and Gatti who dont have that kind of resume

 

[ssx]

I like Sergio better than Taylor, but his resume is actually far below Taylor's. He's got a great win (KO of Williams) and a win over Pavlik, but not much else. Pavlik's got the wins over Taylor and that's it. I don't think he should get in on just those wins, just as Junior Jones shouldn't get in for two wins over Barrera and Forrest shouldn't get in with two wins over Mosley. There are guys in there who shouldn't be, but at some point they need to hold a higher standard.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

People didn't like Taylor because he stopped taking risks when he won the titles from Hopkins but I think his defenses were legitimate enough. If people like a fighter coming up, its celebrated when he fights guys from other weight classes.

If Taylor doesn't get in then I can't see how Golovkin would be HOF worthy either. His career is almost over and he just fought the first guy who was able to test him.

Well, GGG may set a record in terms of title defenses at MW, if he doesn't move up. He is only 34 and has not taken much dmg, I see him having another 5 years in the ring.

As for JT, people don't think he stopped taking risks. He took the best fights, and got KOed brutally 3 times. Dunno where you getting that people think he stopped taking risks. It was more people don't fault him for Hopkins making boring ass fights.