International [Arab-Israeli Conflict, v4] Israel Sets Goal of Doubling the Jewish Population on the Golan Heights

[Islam Imamate]

I believe every situation or conflict has to be examined from both sides (even ones as extreme as the holocaust) and then weighed upon, everyone is granted due process.

- The conflicts in the Palestinian Mandate looked to be proportional.
- The casualties looked proportional to the population but much more Arabs displaced in the Civil War.
- 1948 Arab-Israel war. 6,373 killed (about 4,000 troops and 2,400 civilians) -Israeli, Between 12,000 and 20,000 (troops and civilians)among which 4,000 soldiers for Egypt, Jordan and Syria with much more Arabs displaced

Now really, you don't think both sides casualties and attacks deserve a mention?

Sure mention both sides but also put the figures in perspective. The Jews expelled 70x as many Palestinians as the other way around. The scale of the violence differential is and always has been this skewed between Israel and the Palestinians.

However small it was there was always a Jewish presence in Judea/Palestine and by 1948 they had purchased enough land to have a claim on at least a part of a currently stateless region. The Arabs could not tolerate even a sliver of "Muslim" lands being controlled by the Jews so they went to war. This seems a lot more obvious then "They didn't have time for a counter agreement cause they were getting ethnically cleansed". Also when you talk about a raw deal for the Palestinians, the Arabs couldn't even from 1948-1967 form a state for the Palestinians when they had control of the West Bank and Gaza. Do you know why they didn't even try?

I never denied that the Arab states had their own interests but that doesn't justify what Israel has done. Jordan actually integrated the majority of its Palestinian refugee population. Definitely better to be born in Jordan as a Palestinian than in the occupied territories.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Sure mention both sides but also put the figures in perspective. The Jews expelled 70x as many Palestinians as the other way around. The scale of the violence differential is and always has been this skewed between Israel and the Palestinians.

I've always mentioned the Nakba and the displacement and it was you that said that mentioning "all sides" was BS. Now you're finally going to acknowledge that this started out as an equal fight and then was escalated by the Jews. At least that's movement.

I never denied that the Arab states had their own interests but that doesn't justify what Israel has done. Jordan actually integrated the majority of its Palestinian refugee population. Definitely better to be born in Jordan as a Palestinian than in the occupied territories.

Well first it was "They didn't have time to draft a counter resolution" now I'm glad you admit it was at least in part counter Arab interests that failed the 2 state solution. Why didn't Jordan, Egypt and the Arab League declare a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza between 1948-1967? This is something you've never answered.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

the arabs escalated it. They always did.

yes some jews did violate the British mandate. The original british plan was for an arab sunni palestinian ethno state in Jordan and a jewish homeland for jews in what is today Israel. However the jewish homeland for jews in Israel meant the jews had to share with the muslims but it was the defacto jewish state. THe muslims broke that by attacking the jews in 1948 and ever since then launching genocidal wars and terrorist attacks. They could of had a state in west bank when jordan controlled it for 20 years but they not did instead like we all know they wanted all israel and jews gone

700k Arabs were displaced in that conflict and of course historians are split on the causes. The Israelis had no where else to go after the Holocaust in Europe so I'm sure that was used as a rallying cry that hardened them to stay. The number of displaced is so disproportionate that I really don't know what else to attribute it to other than Israeli escalation.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I've always mentioned the Nakba and the displacement and it was you that said that mentioning "all sides" was BS. Now you're finally going to acknowledge that this started out as an equal fight and then was escalated by the Jews. At least that's movement.

It was never equal, the Zionists were always better trained and equipped and funded and diplomatically supported than the Palestinians. Just because violence did go both ways doesn't mean it was proportional.

Well first it was "They didn't have time to draft a counter resolution" now I'm glad you admit it was at least in part counter Arab interests that failed the 2 state solution. Why didn't Jordan, Egypt and the Arab League declare a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza between 1948-1967? This is something you've never answered.

Jordan didn't declare a Palestinian state but it did integrate most of the Palestinians refugees. Most Palestinians in Jordan have Jordanian citizenship. Is that what some Zionist apologists like to say, that Palestinians are just Jordanians? Well Jordanians have used the one state solution for the most part, something Israel would never agree to. If Israel offered to do that many Palestinians would accept but they would never agree to giving Israeli citizenship to just the Palestinians in the occupied territories, much less the remaining refugees.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

It was never equal, the Zionists were always better trained and equipped and funded and diplomatically supported than the Palestinians. Just because violence did go both ways doesn't mean it was proportional.

Did you see some of the killings in the link I posted for Mandatory Palestine that lead to the UN Resolution? It was car bombs, snipers, riots, ambushes that the 2 groups engaged in, this was before their armies were formed and engaged. I haven't done an official count but they look to be equal or at least proportional

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

Jordan didn't declare a Palestinian state but it did integrate most of the Palestinians refugees. Most Palestinians in Jordan have Jordanian citizenship. Is that what some Zionist apologists like to say, that Palestinians are just Jordanians? Well Jordanians have used the one state solution for the most part, something Israel would never agree to. If Israel offered to do that many Palestinians would accept but they would never agree to giving Israeli citizenship to just the Palestinians in the occupied territories, much less the remaining refugees.

If they were a distinct people like you claim why didn't the Jordanians, Egyptians and Arab League declare a Palestinian state and acknowledge this fact? And if the Palestinians wanted their own state so badly why didn't they demand one in the West Bank while Jordan held it?

 

[MikeMcMann]

...
They didn't just "own it", it was supposed to be their Mandate which they were supposed to govern temporarily with the ultimate goal being the self-governance of the people there. Instead they ended up sowing the seeds of one of the longest active conflicts in the world.

i feel this presupposes that there was an equitable and possibly peaceful settlement option available.

There was not. See below.

...



If they were a distinct people like you claim why didn't the Jordanians, Egyptians and Arab League declare a Palestinian state and acknowledge this fact? And if the Palestinians wanted their own state so badly why didn't they demand one in the West Bank while Jordan held it?

There is only one thing the Arab States would have hated more than having a stable Israeli State in their midst and that would be having stable Israeli and Palestinian States in their midst.

The Arab nations would have never supported either and would always seek to divide and conquer the two by using the desire for Statehood by one to make the other fight them. During the Khartoum Summit the Arab leaders specifically stated they would shift to use the Palestinian DESIRE for statehood as a weapon against Israel and to use oil money to fund them to battle the Israeli's. The Arab leaders never said they would actually support the creation of a Palestinian State and they would not. Thus why they never created one when the chances were there.

 

[abiG]

THe muslims broke that by attacking the jews in 1948 and ever since then launching genocidal wars and terrorist attacks.

The terror began with the zionists long before 1948, Learn history. And these genocidal attacks on Israel ever since?

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

i feel this presupposes that there was an equitable and possibly peaceful settlement option available.

There was not. See below.



There is only one thing the Arab States would have hated more than having a stable Israeli State in their midst and that would be having stable Israeli and Palestinian States in their midst.

The Arab nations would have never supported either and would always seek to divide and conquer the two by using the desire for Statehood by one to make the other fight them. During the Khartoum Summit the Arab leaders specifically stated they would shift to use the Palestinian DESIRE for statehood as a weapon against Israel and to use oil money to fund them to battle the Israeli's. The Arab leaders never said they would actually support the creation of a Palestinian State and they would not. Thus why they never created one when the chances were there.

I don't really know how genuine their desire for statehood was at that time. Some of the Palestinians wanted to be a part of Nasser's Pan Arab Republic, some wanted to be a part of a greater Syria and some were fine being Jordanian. During that period (48-67) to my knowledge they never asked for a state of their own even though Arabs held Gaza and the West Bank. I want to know why while Jordan and Egypt were in control there were no claims for the land to be part of Palestine but once it was in Israeli hands it was claimed and miraculously became disputed land!

 

[The ScorpioN]

I don't really know how genuine their desire for statehood was at that time. Some of the Palestinians wanted to be a part of Nasser's Pan Arab Republic, some wanted to be a part of a greater Syria and some were fine being Jordanian. During that period (48-67) to my knowledge they never asked for a state of their own even though Arabs held Gaza and the West Bank. I want to know why whilst Jordan and Egypt were in control there were no claims for the land to be part of Palestine but once it was in Israeli hands it was claimed and miraculously became disputed land!

Is that a rhetorical question on your part?

 

[Rholk]

Pic is false

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Is that a rhetorical question on your part?

Maybe a little but I'd really still like to hear some sort of rationalization from one of the Anti-Israeli crowd around here.

 

[abiG]

Pic is false

Hardly, name one instance where ISIS has attacked Israel. I'll go grab a snack.

 

[Rholk]

Hardly, name one instance where ISIS has attacked Israel. I'll go grab a snack.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-israel-bombs-clash-idf-first-time-syria-golan-heights-a7443181.html?amp

As usual google is your friend but since i doubt you care about the truth i did it for you

 

[abiG]

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-israel-bombs-clash-idf-first-time-syria-golan-heights-a7443181.html?amp

As usual google is your friend but since i doubt you care about the truth i did it for you

Google is your friend, but ISIS never attacked Israel. Israel has been supporting ISIS. Use your google again and check back.

 

[Rholk]

Google is your friend, but ISIS never attacked Israel. Israel has been supporting ISIS. Use your google again and check back.

 

[abiG]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-gives-secret-aid-to-syrian-rebels-1497813430

 

[Rholk]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-gives-secret-aid-to-syrian-rebels-1497813430

? Never said anything Bout israel supporting rebels, hell it makes sense for them. You posted a picture saying isis never tried anything against israel and were proven wrong by me.

 

[abiG]

? Never said anything Bout israel supporting rebels, hell it makes sense for them. You posted a picture saying isis never tried anything against israel and were proven wrong by me.

Rebels=terrorists, genius.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-i-would-prefer-islamic-state-to-iran-in-syria/

 

[Rholk]

Rebels=terrorists, genius.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-i-would-prefer-islamic-state-to-iran-in-syria/

Soooooo.... you admit to spreading bullshit in your original post or what?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Did you see some of the killings in the link I posted for Mandatory Palestine that lead to the UN Resolution? It was car bombs, snipers, riots, ambushes that the 2 groups engaged in, this was before their armies were formed and engaged. I haven't done an official count but they look to be equal or at least proportional

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

Here's what wiki says on the consequences of the massacres.

According to historians, whether deliberate or otherwise, the massacres did have a strong impact on the exodus of the Palestinian Arab population. For example, the Deir Yassin massacre is considered to have generated more panic among the Arab population than all other previous operations together and to have caused a mass flight of Palestinians in numerous areas, partly because the actual events at Deir Yassin were greatly embellished by the media.

Additionally, the Deir Yassin massacre became a strong argument for the Arab states to intervene against Israel. Arab League chief Azzam Pasha stated that 'The massacre of Deir Yassin was to a great extent the cause of the wrath of the Arab nations and the most important factor for sending [in] the Arab armies'.[35]

Both sides committed massacres but one side was far, far more effective at using those massacres to expel the other. If the power relations were equal why was it that the sum total of this period was a mass exodus of Palestinians and not Israelis?

Pretty fucking laughable that you'd say this

700k Arabs were displaced in that conflict and of course historians are split on the causes.

all while being aware of Israeli massacres of Arabs. There really is little doubt over whether or not Israelis expelled Palestinians from their ancestral homes, even Yitz Rabin admits it. Any doubts there may have been early on can be easily explained with recourse to the note before that chapter; his admission wasn't in the first edition.

So why didn't the Jordanians, Egyptians and Arab League declare a Palestinian state? If they were a distinct people like you claim why didn't their fellow Arabs acknowledge this declare them their own state? And if the Palestinians wanted their own state so badly why didn't they demand one in the West Bank - Palestine while Jordan held it?

Same reason the Zionists didn't build Israel in Uganda, their ties were to Palestine. Except unlike the Zionists their ties were continuous for hundreds, maybe even thousands, of years. Either way they want to return to their home in Israel. Some of them have been displaced twice by both Arab-Israeli wars.

And again, just because they are distinct doesn't mean the two state solution is the only answer. Jordan didn't need to create a Palestinians state because they integrated the majority of their Palestinian population into their citizenry. That is also an alternative for Israel if the Zionists don't want the two state solution which does seem to be the case. But even that is unacceptable for the Zionists. They want the status quo where they can slowly eat away at Palestine's remaining natural capital until the Palestinians are stuck on reservations.