Anti Trump Evangelicals

[Johnny Mac]

Says the guy/gal/trans with the most replies in this thread.

LOL....I prefer the pronoun "He or Him."....I actually like your thread. Good job on this thread. It is topic that I know a lot about.

 

[King of Fists]

When asked whether Jews ought to pay taxes, Jesus said that we ought to render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and to render unto God that which belongs to God. This verse alone gives Christians plenty of room to compartmentalize politics and religion. There is no strong Christian reason that compels one to vote for Hillary over Trump or vice versa.

Christianity is not a political religion, which leaves it adherents plenty of political flexibility. The idea that evangelicals have forsaken principles in electing Trump is the love child of ignorance and disdain for Christians.

Disagree. It's fine to vote for Trump because you like his policies. That's your right, even if I think it's a dumb choice. Voting for Trump BECAUSE you're a Christian is extremely disingenuous. It's not evangelicals/"Christians" voting for Trump thats the problem, the problem is those people voting for Trump "in the name of God."

I hope you can see the difference. As soon as you start invoking Christianity into things you better be practicing those Christian principles or you're just a common hypocrite. By extension, if you're voting for someone BECAUSE you claim to be a Christian, you better be voting for an actual Christian, which Trump is NOT.

It bears repeating, Jesus taught self sacrifice, giving to others, and love for your enemies. While those things are great for personal redemption, a government based off those principles is a terrible idea. That's why it is so dumb that there are "Christian" political groups. If you claim to be a "Christian" and are involved in politics, then you better be advocating for massive welfare, open borders, dismantling of the military, etc...or you are simply a massive hypocrite.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Disagree. It's fine to vote for Trump because you like his policies. That's your right, even if I think it's a dumb choice. Voting for Trump BECAUSE you're a Christian is extremely disingenuous. It's not evangelicals/"Christians" voting for Trump thats the problem, the problem is those people voting for Trump "in the name of God."

When did I say anything about voting Trump "BECAUSE" one is a Christian. I didn't, and this was't a major argument among evangelicals.

Jesus taught self sacrifice, giving to others, and love for your enemies. While those things are great for personal redemption, a government based off those principles is a terrible idea.

Good point. I strongly agree.

That's why it is so dumb that there are "Christian" political groups. If you claim to be a "Christian" and are involved in politics, then you better be advocating for massive welfare, open borders, dismantling of the military, etc...or you are simply a massive hypocrite.

Nonsense. A Christian could agree with you that most of the commands of their religion are personal in nature and thus compartmentalize their involvement in politics and their involvement in religion. As Jesus said, Render unto Caesar what is Caesar and render unto God what is God's." Which is to say, both the government and God have distinct, legitimate demands upon individuals.

 

[King of Fists]

When did I say anything about voting Trump "BECAUSE" one is a Christian. I didn't, and this was't a major argument among evangelicals.

Pretty much every Evangelical who voted for Trump did so because he brings a more "Christian" agenda (which is not true, but that argument has been used both on this forum and all over the place outside this forum)

Nonsense. A Christian could agree with you that most of the commands of their religion are personal in nature and thus compartmentalize their involvement in politics and their involvement in religion. As Jesus said, Render unto Caesar what is Caesar and render unto God what is God's." Which is to say, both the government and God have distinct, legitimate demands upon individuals.

Not at all true, Jesus commanded his followers to follow God first and foremost. When religion and politics disagree, you really think Jesus wants you to follow politics first? In countries where Christianity is outlawed do you really think Jesus wants Christians to stop praying?

When the apostle Paul was jailed for preaching Christianity, do you think he was "in the wrong" because he broke the law?

Sure, if there's no conflict with the Bible than you should follow the law. But if you are the ones making the laws in a way that contradicts Christianity (closing borders, reducing help to the needy, etc) you can't claim to be a Christian at the same time.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Pretty much every Evangelical who voted for Trump did so because he brings a more "Christian" agenda (which is not true, but that argument has been used both on this forum and all over the place outside this forum)

Source? I heard that from Catholics because of Hillary's support of abortion, but as a church going evangelical, I didn't hear that very often from evangelicals. The argument I heard was mainly about Supreme Court justices.

Not at all true, Jesus commanded his followers to follow God first and foremost. When religion and politics disagree, you really think Jesus wants you to follow politics first? In countries where Christianity is outlawed do you really think Jesus wants Christians to stop praying?

When the apostle Paul was jailed for preaching Christianity, do you think he was "in the wrong" because he broke the law?

Sure, if there's no conflict with the Bible than you should follow the law. But if you are the ones making the laws in a way that contradicts Christianity (closing borders, reducing help to the needy, etc) you can't claim to be a Christian at the same time.

I don't see how this is responsive to anything I wrote. No, I don't think Christians should stop praying in countries where Christianity is outlawed. I don't see how anything I wrote would lead you to believe I would.

 

[King of Fists]

Source? I heard that from Catholics because of Hillary's support of abortion, but as a church going evangelical, I didn't hear that very often from evangelicals. The argument I heard was mainly about Supreme Court justices.

That's exactly what I said, evangelicals voted Trump because he brought a more "Christian" agenda; i.e appointing more conservative judges. If "Christians" as a group do things together then by definition they are doing them for Christian reasons or guess what, then they are not Christians.

If "evangelicals" by and large do a certain thing for secular reasons then I don't even consider those people Christians nor does the Bible.

I don't see how this is responsive to anything I wrote. No, I don't think Christians should stop praying in countries where Christianity is outlawed. I don't see how anything I wrote would lead you to believe I would.

Your original statement was

Christianity is not a political religion, which leaves it adherents plenty of political flexibility. The idea that evangelicals have forsaken principles in electing Trump is the love child of ignorance and disdain for Christians.

What I'm saying is, by the biblical definition of Christianity -- that is, a follower of Jesus first and foremost --you're bound to follow Jesus in all you do which means everything, including voting. So the assertion that a Christian voting has nothing to do with Christianity is patently false if we're going by the Bible.

 

[King of Fists]

Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.

Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?

Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.

This is such a perfect verse for this thread. To some of the more self-identifying Christian posters on this board such as @Johnny Mac , @TheComebackKid , @HockeyBjj could you explain to me who you think Jesus is talking about there?

Do you think Jesus is talking about people who claim to know him but don't follow what he preached? Or do you think he's talking about people who deny Jesus altogether but actually strive for some of the same things Jesus advocated for such as helping the poor?

Maybe more importantly, could you describe how someone like Jesus was talking about might act?

 

[Thai Domi]

Red Letter Christians, at their essence, reject the deity of the LJC, so I reject them and they're opinions.

 

[King of Fists]

Red Letter Christians, at their essence, reject the deity of the LJC, so I reject them and they're opinions.

"People who follow the words of Jesus first and foremost have rejected him"

K....

 

[Thai Domi]

You forgot to add that the "Red Letters" are the spoken words of Jesus in the Bible. Christians who pay the most attention to what Christ said... imagine that....

I hate to break it to you, but the "red letters" are no more or less authoritative or important than any other verses in the bible.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are One, so technically every word in the bible should be in red ink.

 

[HockeyBjj]

This is such a perfect verse for this thread. To some of the more self-identifying Christian posters on this board such as @Johnny Mac , @TheComebackKid , @HockeyBjj could you explain to me who you think Jesus is talking about there?

Do you think Jesus is talking about people who claim to know him but don't follow what he preached? Or do you think he's talking about people who deny Jesus altogether but actually strive for some of the same things Jesus advocated for such as helping the poor?

Maybe more importantly, could you describe how someone like Jesus was talking about might act?

Not sure why I got dragged into this, but that passage is clearly talking about people who claim to be Christians but haven’t had their heart transformed so that they strive to actually follow Christ and obey his teachings. Not even really an oft misunderstood or debatable under which context it should apply passage

As for your point that I’m afraid you’re attempting to justify a person who does good but deny’s the Lord, it is made very clear that good deeds alone won’t save a person. It is the acceptance of God and Jesus’ sacrifice that saves a person. As a result of that acknowledgment and accepting that down to our very core, as a result we then strive to live like Christ taught as evidence of this

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

That's exactly what I said, evangelicals voted Trump because he brought a more "Christian" agenda; i.e appointing more conservative judges. If "Christians" as a group do things together then by definition they are doing them for Christian reasons or guess what, then they are not Christians.

If "evangelicals" by and large do a certain thing for secular reasons then I don't even consider those people Christians nor does the Bible.




Your original statement was



What I'm saying is, by the biblical definition of Christianity -- that is, a follower of Jesus first and foremost --you're bound to follow Jesus in all you do which means everything, including voting. So the assertion that a Christian voting has nothing to do with Christianity is patently false if we're going by the Bible.

Your reasoning is a mess here. This happens a lot when someone understands just a little about a given religion and then tries to make broad generalizations about the adherents of those religions. You see it when Christians discuss Muslims and when political pundits try to discuss evangelicals.

1. Evangelicals thought Trump was the better candidate for Christians because they thought he would appoint justices who would uphold freedom of religion. This is not the same as saying they think trump is a good Christian nor, despite your insistence, is it an inherently Christian agenda.

2. Yes, the point of life to Christians is to follow Jesus. What then should be their view on tax rates? Jesus said little about political issues, but he did say that taxes ought to be paid, and the phrasing he used, "Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and unto God that which belongs to God" showed that government has a legitimate, limited jurisdiction over the life of Christians and Jews. This has been discussed widely by Christians for centuries.

3. So your understanding about how the Bible tells Christians to vote is flawed. Jesus saw politics as part of life that was not inherently incompatible with Christianity, but gave no instruction about how to carry oneself in politics. He placed intense personal commandments on individuals. Jesus did not promulgate political policy. The political flexibility this affords his followers is likely a good part of the reason Christianity has flourished under feudalism, in city-states, in absolute monarchies, and in democracies.

4. It's funny how often the religious right is called out for being theocratic, but then people act as if it is hypocritical when they don't display theocratic tendencies.

 

[King of Fists]

Not sure why I got dragged into this, but that passage is clearly talking about people who claim to be Christians but haven’t had their heart transformed so that they strive to actually follow Christ and obey his teachings. Not even really an oft misunderstood or debatable under which context it should apply passage

As for your point that I’m afraid you’re attempting to justify a person who does good but deny’s the Lord, it is made very clear that good deeds alone won’t save a person. It is the acceptance of God and Jesus’ sacrifice that saves a person. As a result of that acknowledgment and accepting that down to our very core, as a result we then strive to live like Christ taught as evidence of this

I just tagged you cause I knew I'd get a mature response from someone who claims to be a Christian. Some of these other guys I'm not so sure.

I agree with you to some extent on non-christians but imo the biblical message has been bastardized by politics. So if someone (hypothetically) only knows the sterotypical megachurch doctrine of wealth "Christianity" then they could reject that but still lead a disciplined, Christlike life.

I mean if you believe the Bible you believe that we all get judged -- certainly not all Native Americans and other idigenoous people's who never even heard the word "Jesus" are destined for hell. And even the thief on the cross was not a follower of Jesus but was given eternal life for his good deed.

 

[King of Fists]

Your reasoning is a mess here. This happens a lot when someone understands just a little about a given religion and then tries to make broad generalizations about the adherents of those religions. You see it when Christians discuss Muslims and when political pundits try to discuss evangelicals.

1. Evangelicals thought Trump was the better candidate for Christians because they thought he would appoint justices who would uphold freedom of religion. This is not the same as saying they think trump is a good Christian nor, despite your insistence, is it an inherently Christian agenda.

2. Yes, the point of life to Christians is to follow Jesus. What then should be their view on tax rates? Jesus said little about political issues, but he did say that taxes ought to be paid, and the phrasing he used, "Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and unto God that which belongs to God" showed that government has a legitimate, limited jurisdiction over the life of Christians and Jews. This has been discussed widely by Christians for centuries.

3. So your understanding about how the Bible tells Christians to vote is flawed. Jesus saw politics as part of life that was not inherently incompatible with Christianity, but gave no instruction about how to carry oneself in politics. He placed intense personal commandments on individuals. Jesus did not promulgate political policy. The political flexibility this affords his followers is likely a good part of the reason Christianity has flourished under feudalism, in city-states, in absolute monarchies, and in democracies.

4. It's funny how often the religious right is called out for being theocratic, but then people act as if it is hypocritical when they don't display theocratic tendencies.

Do you agree that Christians have the responsibility to follow Christ in all their actions, else they shouldnt call themselves Christians?

 

[Johnny Mac]

This is such a perfect verse for this thread. To some of the more self-identifying Christian posters on this board such as @Johnny Mac , @TheComebackKid , @HockeyBjj could you explain to me who you think Jesus is talking about there?

Do you think Jesus is talking about people who claim to know him but don't follow what he preached? Or do you think he's talking about people who deny Jesus altogether but actually strive for some of the same things Jesus advocated for such as helping the poor?

Maybe more importantly, could you describe how someone like Jesus was talking about might act?

Someone's faith that says but does not do is really unbelief. Jesus was not suggesting that works are meritorious for salvation, but that true faith will not fail to produce the fruit of good works. These people referred to, were not authentic.

 

[TheComebackKid]

This is such a perfect verse for this thread. To some of the more self-identifying Christian posters on this board such as @Johnny Mac , @TheComebackKid , @HockeyBjj could you explain to me who you think Jesus is talking about there?

Do you think Jesus is talking about people who claim to know him but don't follow what he preached? Or do you think he's talking about people who deny Jesus altogether but actually strive for some of the same things Jesus advocated for such as helping the poor?

Maybe more importantly, could you describe how someone like Jesus was talking about might act?

I'm not sure what you're actually asking me my friend. Can you restate your question in a more direct manner?

 

[King of Fists]

Someone's faith that says but does not do is really unbelief.

Agreed. So do you think Trump is a Christian?

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Do you agree that Christians have the responsibility to follow Christ in all their actions, else they shouldnt call themselves Christians?

No.

1. Christians have faith in Jesus Christ believe that He is the Son of God, that He was crucified and raised on the 3rd day. No Christian follows Christ in all their actions, which why Christians stress the need for divine forgiveness. As the apostle John wrote in the Bible, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

2. Christianity grants Christians freedom to adhere to a large spectrum of political doctrine. This is why in the US one can easily find Christians on all sides of most debates.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Do you agree that Christians have the responsibility to follow Christ in all their actions, else they shouldnt call themselves Christians?

They have a responsibility to strive for this with all of their heart, mind, and soul. But they are allowed to fall short and still consider themselves followers of Jesus Christ.

Its all about whats in your heart. If you are truly following Jesus Christ you are still going to make mistakes but it will grieve your heart and spirit. It will compel you to repent and correct yourself...or at least try to. The flesh is a helluva drug.

 

[King of Fists]

I'm not sure what you're actually asking me my friend. Can you restate your question in a more direct manner?

Yes, could you describe to me what you think the type of person Jesus is talking about in Matthew 25:32-41 would be like? What sort of behavior they exhibit or how they might act?