American kenpo/freestyle vs. Shotokan (wkf/jka)

[penortremor]

I've been curious about point fighting systems lately as it seems to produce athletes with mind blowing reflexes, speed, timing, and accuracy. I believe these martial characteristics are great as an add-on to other styles of combat, just look at guys like lyoto machida. However, there are many different styles of point fighting karate. You have the more traditional, linear looking styles like wkf/jka shotokan karate (lyoto machida, kyoji horiguchi, etc) and then you have the more flow freestyle American styles like American kenpo/freestyle kickboxing (raymond daniels, Michael venom page, Stephen thompson). Here are examples of both at their respective highest levels:

Wkf shotokan karate:

W.A.K.O freestyle kickboxing (assuming it is basically like effective American Kenpo):


So how would each competitor do against the other? A top ranked shotokan guy vs a top ranked freestyle guy? And what are the major differences here? From what I can tell shotokan is more linear whereas freestyle is more circular. Freestyle also seems less structured and more expressive. I'd assume shotokan has a bigger competitive population? But the burning question for me remains, how would the top freestyle competitors do against the top shotokan competitors? The only videos I can find of style vs style in a point fighting sports scenario were lower level guys.

I'm curious as to everyone's opinions on this from a sport karate perspective. And yes, I'm also selfishly asking because there are a few shotokan karate dojos in my area that compete at a high level in wkf and there is also a Dick Willet American Kenpo gym that is run by a hall of famer and looks like freestyle. And before this devolves to karate vs muay thai for real combat effectiveness, I have a background in other combat sports already including wrestling as my first sport so I'm purely interested in this whole point fighting thing, so...

 

[shincheckin]

I've been curious about point fighting systems lately as it seems to produce athletes with mind blowing reflexes, speed, timing, and accuracy. I believe these martial characteristics are great as an add-on to other styles of combat, just look at guys like lyoto machida. However, there are many different styles of point fighting karate. You have the more traditional, linear looking styles like wkf/jka shotokan karate (lyoto machida, kyoji horiguchi, etc) and then you have the more flow freestyle American styles like American kenpo/freestyle kickboxing (raymond daniels, Michael venom page, Stephen thompson). Here are examples of both at their respective highest levels:

Wkf shotokan karate:

W.A.K.O freestyle kickboxing (assuming it is basically like effective American Kenpo):


So how would each competitor do against the other? A top ranked shotokan guy vs a top ranked freestyle guy? And what are the major differences here? From what I can tell shotokan is more linear whereas freestyle is more circular. Freestyle also seems less structured and more expressive. I'd assume shotokan has a bigger competitive population? But the burning question for me remains, how would the top freestyle competitors do against the top shotokan competitors? The only videos I can find of style vs style in a point fighting sports scenario were lower level guys.

I'm curious as to everyone's opinions on this from a sport karate perspective. And yes, I'm also selfishly asking because there are a few shotokan karate dojos in my area that compete at a high level in wkf and there is also a Dick Willet American Kenpo gym that is run by a hall of famer and looks like freestyle. And before this devolves to karate vs muay thai for real combat effectiveness, I have a background in other combat sports already including wrestling as my first sport so I'm purely interested in this whole point fighting thing, so...

muay thai for the win!!! just kidding.

I would take a wild shot and guess the first video style. But I am not a karate expert so wtf do i know.

I think getting a educated and rational answer on this question may be hard to get.

Hopefully some of our karate regulars can give their input

 

[Dougall]

Although Shotokan guys can compete in WKF, you've mentioned JKA so I thought I'd elaborate a bit more on that. Its the organisation Lyoto Machida and his brothers come from, his dad was also head of the organisation in Brazil. Anyway it differs from WKF enough that I thought Id talk about it separate;
JKA: Matches are won by Ippon(or two half points). Ippons being scored by clean headkicks or takesdowns(mostly footsweeps) followed by a strike, everything else scores a half point. Because your opponent only has to hit you a maximum of 2 times, JKA karateka tend to be vary wary of moving in to strike. Maybe wary is not the best word but they are patient and will happily wait until they get a good chance to strike. Often staying a considerable distance away and when the opponent makes a lunge to cover this distance they strike them on the way in, normally with a reverse punch. (Machida vs Bader is a great example of this, his brother also used the same tactic against Navarro but used an uppercut instead). They also aren't as strict with "contact" in their matches. Yes, the strikes must be controlled, but not to the tippy tappy extant of the WKF. I had the opportunity to work at the 2017 JKA world championships last year(at which I also had the pleasure to meet lyotos dad) and I can tell you that at that level, the judges/refs made very few calls about excessive contact. There was broken noses, broken foots, broken and dislocated fingers and no warnings were given for these. Overall I think its a pretty beneficial style. Note lyoto using the same sweep in JKA comp then in the UFC

WKF: matches work a little differently. Its a rolling scorecard, strikes worth different values. Head kick is 3 points, body kick is 2, punch is 1, or something similar. They tend to be a lot stricter over what they deem "excessive". I find their techniques turn into "who can touch who with something resembling strike". They don't seem like they could put power in their techniques even if they tried. They are a bit more lenient with their takedowns though, they allow some simple judo throws. TWKF competitors are the ones you think of when you think of karateka landing one punch them running round the mats screaming like mad man, they do this to influence the judges.

Freestyle: Seems to be the Light-Contact/point fighting WAKO matches there. These, I think, use the similar rolling scorecard as the WKF. The winner is just the who has the most points at the end. The Light/semi contact tends to look like ITF taekwondo, probing with the front foot, lots of kicks, and again just trying to touch. What I like about the freestyle is that they tend to have different rulesets under the same organisation, giving competitors the chance to slowly progress. WAKO for example, you can start in semi contact, progress to full contact(above the waist kicks only), then low kick, then full K1. And because the competitors started in the point fighting ruleset they tend to keep that same style of fighting right up the leagues. Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson, Michael "Venom" Page and Raymond Daniels would all fall into this category. All starting in Point fighting at one point, with Wonderboy and Daniels progressing to full contact(fighting eachother in WCL too). Wonderboy then progressing to UFC and Daniels to Glory Kickboxing. MVP going straight to MMA as we know. But they've all kept the similar long distance style they developed through freestyle point kickboxing.

* I haven't any GIFs of the point fighting but there is this great article by jack slack about it here; http://fightland.vice.com/blog/michael-page-and-the-legitimacy-of-point-fighting
Infact I had saved a lot of these GIFS from his articles at one point, they were a great read and were all relating to this topic to some degree. If I can find them I'll post the links here, I think they were from fightland. Also, I may be a little biased towards JKA against the WKF but sure, wouldn't be karate without politics
*EDIT*: Seems I didn't really answer the question so Ill try to keep this bit brief. I'm a fan of JKA approach, it may be boring to watch but it teaches you to wait until your certain you'll land your shot. I also teaches you some nifty foot sweeps, and the contact in competitions isn't as limited. WKF I find more like tag and it doesn't really interest me or pose a benefit

 

[MilkManUK]

I've a fair bit of experience in WKF rules Karate competition, although back when I was training and competing in Karate it was called WUKO I think (going back 20 years or so). I also have experience in competing in a few boxing bouts, and partook in a couple of Thai boxing interclubs/smokers - all done after my Karate days.

I'd say some of the pros of WKF type Karate are: Shot selection: you tend to only throw or setup crisp techniques when you are certain they will land (albeit with little to no power) to ensure you score the ippon or wazari before your opponent does. On the other hand, this can also be a con of course when transferring to a full contact, continuous fighting style such as boxing / thai etc where combinations are thrown and single shots are unlikely to be enough to end the fight and will potentially leave you open to he countered with a barrage of hard techniques.

Distance management / footwork can be developed pretty well under WKF competition format, although with the exception of foot sweeps, when the fights get into closer range alot of the techniques are lacking, or the competitors unsure of how to fight in this range.

Obviously the contact needs to be addressed. If you don't train or compete to hit hard then that's something else that would need to be worked on when entering a full contact arena.

Also, aesthetic of the technique - in point fighting, the technique almost has to "look" like a textbook competition Karate technique, too much deviation and it won't score. In full contact, it doesn't matter so much what it looks like, if it lands (and is within the rules of course) then its valid and has the potential to be a fight winner.

So, there are some benefits that can be used to cross over into other fighting styles / sports, but lots of adaptations need to be made in the training methods for any chance of success.

Please note, this is only my opinion based on experiences from 20+years ago so alot may have changed since then - I no longer train Karate and have not seen any competition format except Kyokushin and it's offshoots during the last 15 years or so.

 

[MilkManUK]

Although Shotokan guys can compete in WKF, you've mentioned JKA so I thought I'd elaborate a bit more on that. Its the organisation Lyoto Machida and his brothers come from, his dad was also head of the organisation in Brazil. Anyway it differs from WKF enough that I thought Id talk about it separate;
JKA: Matches are won by Ippon(or two half points). Ippons being scored by clean headkicks or takesdowns(mostly footsweeps) followed by a strike, everything else scores a half point. Because your opponent only has to hit you a maximum of 2 times, JKA karateka tend to be vary wary of moving in to strike. Maybe wary is not the best word but they are patient and will happily wait until they get a good chance to strike. Often staying a considerable distance away and when the opponent makes a lunge to cover this distance they strike them on the way in, normally with a reverse punch. (Machida vs Bader is a great example of this, his brother also used the same tactic against Navarro but used an uppercut instead). They also aren't as strict with "contact" in their matches. Yes, the strikes must be controlled, but not to the tippy tappy extant of the WKF. I had the opportunity to work at the 2017 JKA world championships last year(at which I also had the pleasure to meet lyotos dad) and I can tell you that at that level, the judges/refs made very few calls about excessive contact. There was broken noses, broken foots, broken and dislocated fingers and no warnings were given for these. Overall I think its a pretty beneficial style. Note lyoto using the same sweep in JKA comp then in the UFC

WKF: matches work a little differently. Its a rolling scorecard, strikes worth different values. Head kick is 3 points, body kick is 2, punch is 1, or something similar. They tend to be a lot stricter over what they deem "excessive". I find their techniques turn into "who can touch who with something resembling strike". They don't seem like they could put power in their techniques even if they tried. They are a bit more lenient with their takedowns though, they allow some simple judo throws. TWKF competitors are the ones you think of when you think of karateka landing one punch them running round the mats screaming like mad man, they do this to influence the judges.

Freestyle: Seems to be the Light-Contact/point fighting WAKO matches there. These, I think, use the similar rolling scorecard as the WKF. The winner is just the who has the most points at the end. The Light/semi contact tends to look like ITF taekwondo, probing with the front foot, lots of kicks, and again just trying to touch. What I like about the freestyle is that they tend to have different rulesets under the same organisation, giving competitors the chance to slowly progress. WAKO for example, you can start in semi contact, progress to full contact(above the waist kicks only), then low kick, then full K1. And because the competitors started in the point fighting ruleset they tend to keep that same style of fighting right up the leagues. Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson, Michael "Venom" Page and Raymond Daniels would all fall into this category. All starting in Point fighting at one point, with Wonderboy and Daniels progressing to full contact(fighting eachother in WCL too). Wonderboy then progressing to UFC and Daniels to Glory Kickboxing. MVP going straight to MMA as we know. But they've all kept the similar long distance style they developed through freestyle point kickboxing.

* I haven't any GIFs of the point fighting but there is this great article by jack slack about it here; http://fightland.vice.com/blog/michael-page-and-the-legitimacy-of-point-fighting
Infact I had saved a lot of these GIFS from his articles at one point, they were a great read and were all relating to this topic to some degree. If I can find them I'll post the links here, I think they were from fightland. Also, I may be a little biased towards JKA against the WKF but sure, wouldn't be karate without politics
*EDIT*: Seems I didn't really answer the question so Ill try to keep this bit brief. I'm a fan of JKA approach, it may be boring to watch but it teaches you to wait until your certain you'll land your shot. I also teaches you some nifty foot sweeps, and the contact in competitions isn't as limited. WKF I find more like tag and it doesn't really interest me or pose a benefit

Also, quoting this as it is a bloody good post.

 

[Dougall]

.

Obviously the contact needs to be addressed. If you don't train or compete to hit hard then that's something else that would need to be worked on when entering a full contact arena.
.........
So, there are some benefits that can be used to cross over into other fighting styles / sports, but lots of adaptations need to be made in the training methods for any chance of success.

This is a good point here. The contact is the main thing that needs to be addressed with any ruleset of point fighting. If you only point fight for a significant period of time you may pick up bad habits. Such as only throwing to touch and not to deal damage, and relearning your distance can be hard. Not saying it will happen but it can. Getting hit is another thing, you could have years of point fighting under your belt, but when you get hit hard you could loose composure like any beginner in full contact.
To get the best out of point fighting I think you need to be cross training a full contact style. Be it often or only once a month or so, you need to remember while point fighting that you'll wventeventwant to do damage with your techniques. It also exposes you to getting hit, teaches you you ain't made of glass, which again doesn't always happen in point fighting. If you haven't the option to train 2 styles at once, that's when I think the ruleset of point fighting is important. If these point fighting tournaments are the only competition you have, go for the ones which allow the most contact, meaning less adaption needed for full contact. That's my thought anyway

 

[penortremor]

I've a fair bit of experience in WKF rules Karate competition, although back when I was training and competing in Karate it was called WUKO I think (going back 20 years or so). I also have experience in competing in a few boxing bouts, and partook in a couple of Thai boxing interclubs/smokers - all done after my Karate days.

I'd say some of the pros of WKF type Karate are: Shot selection: you tend to only throw or setup crisp techniques when you are certain they will land (albeit with little to no power) to ensure you score the ippon or wazari before your opponent does. On the other hand, this can also be a con of course when transferring to a full contact, continuous fighting style such as boxing / thai etc where combinations are thrown and single shots are unlikely to be enough to end the fight and will potentially leave you open to he countered with a barrage of hard techniques.

Distance management / footwork can be developed pretty well under WKF competition format, although with the exception of foot sweeps, when the fights get into closer range alot of the techniques are lacking, or the competitors unsure of how to fight in this range.

Obviously the contact needs to be addressed. If you don't train or compete to hit hard then that's something else that would need to be worked on when entering a full contact arena.

Also, aesthetic of the technique - in point fighting, the technique almost has to "look" like a textbook competition Karate technique, too much deviation and it won't score. In full contact, it doesn't matter so much what it looks like, if it lands (and is within the rules of course) then its valid and has the potential to be a fight winner.

So, there are some benefits that can be used to cross over into other fighting styles / sports, but lots of adaptations need to be made in the training methods for any chance of success.

Please note, this is only my opinion based on experiences from 20+years ago so alot may have changed since then - I no longer train Karate and have not seen any competition format except Kyokushin and it's offshoots during the last 15 years or so.

Thanks to everyone that replied, very informative. I do plan on cross training with boxing. I guess I'm not asking so much which style is better for cross over as I'm asking which style is better for pure sport karate. Raymond Daniels vs top WKF/JKA guy in sport karate etc. I figure I have a background in wrestling and plan on cross training with boxing therefore the gap between sport karate and full contact will bridge on its' own. Almost all karate styles have produced good kickboxers/mma fighters, it's a matter of figuring out how to use the karate you've learned to have an advantage I feel. All styles work if applied properly is the way I'm looking at it. With that being said, how do you think your karate background has benefitted your boxing/muay thai?

 

[MilkManUK]

Thanks to everyone that replied, very informative. I do plan on cross training with boxing. I guess I'm not asking so much which style is better for cross over as I'm asking which style is better for pure sport karate. Raymond Daniels vs top WKF/JKA guy in sport karate etc. I figure I have a background in wrestling and plan on cross training with boxing therefore the gap between sport karate and full contact will bridge on its' own. Almost all karate styles have produced good kickboxers/mma fighters, it's a matter of figuring out how to use the karate you've learned to have an advantage I feel. All styles work if applied properly is the way I'm looking at it. With that being said, how do you think your karate background has benefitted your boxing/muay thai?

Yeah, sorry I didn't really answer your question at all! With regards to which is best for sport karate, the rules dictate the fight, so it depends under what sport karate ruleset the fight would take place. I guess in a WKF type match you'd favour the WKF guy, and in a WAKO / freestyle type match you'd go with the guy best versed in that format. If you were to put a competitor from both into a kickboxing bout (no lowkicks) I'd go with the freestyle guy.

Karate background probably didn't help too much with the boxing, but some tricks etc and some of the different kicks helped more in Thai, such as ushiro geri / back kick and axe kick, which is something alot of thai guys aren't used to.

 

[Dougall]

Thanks to everyone that replied, very informative. I do plan on cross training with boxing. I guess I'm not asking so much which style is better for cross over as I'm asking which style is better for pure sport karate. Raymond Daniels vs top WKF/JKA guy in sport karate etc. I figure I have a background in wrestling and plan on cross training with boxing therefore the gap between sport karate and full contact will bridge on its' own. Almost all karate styles have produced good kickboxers/mma fighters, it's a matter of figuring out how to use the karate you've learned to have an advantage I feel. All styles work if applied properly is the way I'm looking at it. With that being said, how do you think your karate background has benefitted your boxing/muay thai?

Think the last reply summed it up well, it depends under what ruleset the competition takes place. Each competitor has adapted and is used to a different set of rules. Although you can look at a few real examples of it. Rodrigo Rojas, JKA world champion, is also a WKF competitor. Think he placed at the pan Americans for WKF but as far as i know he hasn't placed at the worlds. I cant think of anyone of the top of my head crossing over between WAKO(or similar) and and of the point karate styles. WAKO and all that freestyle kickboxing tend to stay with that from what I find, as there's a million and one organisations running those competitions they probably dont feel the need/or even have time to move to compete in a different ruleset. Same for the karate to point kickboxing.
This karate combat makes it interesting though, the guy mentioned above competes with them along with rafael aghayev, a top wkf guy.

 

[fighthug]

I do not think this scoring system will prepare you for a real fight.

The best scoring system in all martial arts in my opinion and the Thai muaythai scoring system.

 

[Blue_Lou]

I was under the impression that we’re past the era of pure style vs style. When you ask how one would do vs another it probably depends on the ruleset they’re fighting under. So for MMA or a street fight, the discipline that’s less structured likely has the advantage, all other factors being equal.

 

[spacetime]

I've a fair bit of experience in WKF rules Karate competition, although back when I was training and competing in Karate it was called WUKO I think (going back 20 years or so). I also have experience in competing in a few boxing bouts, and partook in a couple of Thai boxing interclubs/smokers - all done after my Karate days.

I'd say some of the pros of WKF type Karate are: Shot selection: you tend to only throw or setup crisp techniques when you are certain they will land (albeit with little to no power) to ensure you score the ippon or wazari before your opponent does. On the other hand, this can also be a con of course when transferring to a full contact, continuous fighting style such as boxing / thai etc where combinations are thrown and single shots are unlikely to be enough to end the fight and will potentially leave you open to he countered with a barrage of hard techniques.

Distance management / footwork can be developed pretty well under WKF competition format, although with the exception of foot sweeps, when the fights get into closer range alot of the techniques are lacking, or the competitors unsure of how to fight in this range.

Obviously the contact needs to be addressed. If you don't train or compete to hit hard then that's something else that would need to be worked on when entering a full contact arena.

Also, aesthetic of the technique - in point fighting, the technique almost has to "look" like a textbook competition Karate technique, too much deviation and it won't score. In full contact, it doesn't matter so much what it looks like, if it lands (and is within the rules of course) then its valid and has the potential to be a fight winner.

So, there are some benefits that can be used to cross over into other fighting styles / sports, but lots of adaptations need to be made in the training methods for any chance of success.

Please note, this is only my opinion based on experiences from 20+years ago so alot may have changed since then - I no longer train Karate and have not seen any competition format except Kyokushin and it's offshoots during the last 15 years or so.

That's not what the threadmaker asked about. He asked how different styles of point fighting measure up against each other.

 

[Dougall]

Looking at it a different way for a second. I think when it comes to "point fighting" WKF might attract the higher level of competitors based on prize moneys and opportunities. Things like the 10K karate clash where the prize money is £10,000 (https://www.10kkarateclash.com/) really tempt people to compete under the ruleset. Things like this attract a larger talent pool and more high level competitors, so in strictly "point fighting" WKF may have the better fighters, stylistically.

 

[MilkManUK]

That's not what the threadmaker asked about. He asked how different styles of point fighting measure up against each other.

Yes. I realised that and made a follow up post addressing it.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

 

[spacetime]

Yes. I realised that and made a follow up post addressing it.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

My guess is that WKF guys would by virtue of superior training methods, more grappling , greater talent pool, steamroll at least old school JKA guys, regardless of the specific karate rules. Freestyle karate point fighters vs WKF guys, don't know. Probably more competitive.

 

[penortremor]

Thanks for all the responses guys. To clarify, I don’t really care too much about what style translates better to mma. I just wanted an opinion from some competitive karate practitioners about which style is better for pure point fighting sport karate. Specifically WAKO guys like Raymond Daniels who have a more free flow style where they use their lead leg and backfist type attacks vs shotokan guys who seem more structured and linear. So far it seems like no one really has a definite answer, but thank you for all the informative responses. To add on to the question, for all the shotokan guys. What is your opinion of WAKO point fighters? It seems rarer to find an American Kenpo guys opinion.

 

[spacetime]

Thanks for all the responses guys. To clarify, I don’t really care too much about what style translates better to mma. I just wanted an opinion from some competitive karate practitioners about which style is better for pure point fighting sport karate. Specifically WAKO guys like Raymond Daniels who have a more free flow style where they use their lead leg and backfist type attacks vs shotokan guys who seem more structured and linear. So far it seems like no one really has a definite answer, but thank you for all the informative responses. To add on to the question, for all the shotokan guys. What is your opinion of WAKO point fighters? It seems rarer to find an American Kenpo guys opinion.

I do WAKO style Taekwondo and have sparred a competitor in Shotokan. He got his belly kicked good. Front kicks, round house kicks, etc. I have zero competition experience.. I think point fighting Karate guys struggle against kicking styles.

 

[Hotora86]

Thanks for all the responses guys. To clarify, I don’t really care too much about what style translates better to mma. I just wanted an opinion from some competitive karate practitioners about which style is better for pure point fighting sport karate. Specifically WAKO guys like Raymond Daniels who have a more free flow style where they use their lead leg and backfist type attacks vs shotokan guys who seem more structured and linear. So far it seems like no one really has a definite answer, but thank you for all the informative responses. To add on to the question, for all the shotokan guys. What is your opinion of WAKO point fighters? It seems rarer to find an American Kenpo guys opinion.

Old school Shotokan / Fudokan based guy here. For full contact fighting Shotokan is not the best choice but I would definitely choose JKA over WKF and freestyle / WAKO. Of course it's always about the practitioner and not the art but the ruleset molds the fighter. A freestyle Karateka who only competes in light contact point fighting where the most gentle jab scores a point may end up looking like a fool vs a JKA guy. See here:



(Disclaimer: this is probably one of the worst WAKO guys out there BUT he's fighting exactly how he would in his favored point-scoring rule set.)

If you would like to find out more about Karate styles and various rule sets I recommend checking out this great thread:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/so-you-think-you-know-all-about-karate.2263005/

If you want to know why Shotokan looks so different from Okinawan styles you can check out this thread:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/kendo-the-shift-in-karate-mentality-and-competition.3731269/

If you're interested in a list of Karate fighters in MMA:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-blackbelts-in-mma.3256127/

Other interesting threads about Karate:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/psa-karate-blocks-are-not-blocks.3816397/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-throws.3268689/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/karate-theory-tense-kata-vs-loose-kata.3492769/

 

[Eisenhans]

Thing is: Shotokan isn't nearly as useless as some people (who are somehow stuck in the early 1990s) believe.

 

[MilkManUK]

Thing is: Shotokan isn't nearly as useless as some people (who are somehow stuck in the early 1990s) believe.

I think one of the great things MMA has brought to various traditional styles, is how the art could or should be adapted: how to implement the techniques from your art into an open format such as MMA, or "the street", what techniques could probably be discarded, what techniques and strategies should be given more priority, and how to deal realistically with different types of attacks, whether they be standing striking, grappling or groundwork techniques, that are not based in the same style as the one being practiced.