American Jiu-Jitsu

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by fan of fanboys, Oct 19, 2010.

  1. BuenoEx

    BuenoEx Yellow Belt

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    It's from a movie called Stripes. You might like it. It's on Netflix. Sorry the reference was missed and the humor didn't come across. So, fourfif, you seemed to be getting aggro so I posted what I did. Your posts seemed a little emotionally invested. It's the internet, a.k.a. SRS BSNS.

    The point is, yes, he can call it whatever he wants, but that doesn't make it a separate art any more than I see Dave Camarillo's stuff being separate from bjj because that is the ruleset they both play to.
     
  2. BuenoEx

    BuenoEx Yellow Belt

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    Right on, I meant no disrespect to his jiu-jitsu. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a scrub come out of the Gracie Fighter camp. But he brought up his training for MMA specifically and Melendez hasn't submitted anyone in MMA that I can think of. He has, however, gone toe to toe with some really tough guys including Shinya Aoki and managed to keep a dominant position while defending against their submission attempts and working them into the ground.
     
  3. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Your whole argument seems to be the ruleset, can you please locate the AJJ "rulebook" for me? Just because a system has a rule book or does not have one does not include them or exclude them as part of a style.

    I am guessing that you are going to point to how likely it is that AJJ may follow a similar game plan to BJJ in a BJJ event..well a Sambo guy may too but that is while competiting in BJJ. How well do you think your TYPICAL BJJ guy would transfer to say a sport like wrestling or Sambo? I bet the "TYPICAL" AJJ guy would transfer over far better. It is not just a mindset, it is the TRAINING necessary to effect that mindset.

    The is no ruleset for AJJ that I know of but it appears that they can cross over nicely to BJJ events, Wrestling events, sub grappling events, CACC events and most grappling "system" events regardless of rules.
     
  4. BuenoEx

    BuenoEx Yellow Belt

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    There is no AJJ rule book. Thanks for making my point. It isn't a distinct style because there are bjj players who do cross train under other ruleset/skill set specs. The same can be said for judoka who crosstrain in bjj or SAMBO or wrestlers who cross train in the others. They don't come up with a new style. They just adapt what they do to ruleset. I say that because I cross train in wrestling. I train in and have competed in SAMBO and judo. When I compete in BJJ, I just use what I have learned that is applicable. It's the same thing when I compete in the others. If I am at shiai, I still use my spina entry from SAMBO, it's just called seoi nage but I do not use the kneebar my bjj instructor covered last week but I do use the transition from armbar to triangle. But no matter what I do, I am still just playing judo. Despite the fact that I train a certain way with a focus on getting the throw/takedown, getting on top and I like leg attacks as well, I do not have a new style of grappling. (please understand I am in no way, shape or form comparing my abilities to Jake Shields)

    Gregg Humphreys says "It's all just wrestling" and when you back away from it, I agree. What separates it, is the training focus tailored to the rule set.
     
  5. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    That absolutely did not make any point for you there are plenty of systems of combat out there that dont necessarily have a "rule book"... It is the training method that should be scrutinized.

    Remember at some point GJJ WAS GJJ but did not necessarily have a "rule book" to go by. The training and the focus is what made it different from other systems even before there were federations and an official rulebook. You cannot be implying that GJJ was still "just judo" prior to the formation of a governing body and rule book can you?
    BTW several Judoka can come on here and make the same argument you are making for pre war Judo vs GJJ yet you will stick to your guns concerning the reason GJJ is GJJ and not Judo even BEFORE the rulesets.

    If you could observe a class and see techniques being taught that you dont see regularly and skillfully at your normal "xyz" type gym then it is likely something different.

    Fourfiff has posted the detail and care that certain basic takedowns are covered in AJJ and how all rolls start on the feet that differentiate the system versus the Judo he has taken or the BJJ he has taken. He also wrestled so he has a pretty decent knowledge base to work from.

    You dont have to be an expert in each system to see that the focus and explanation are quite different from one system or another.

    And I am not talking about high level technique such as the "inverted, monkey stealing peach, 1 1/3, suicide guard" that only gets introduced at brown or black belt.. I am talking basic bread and butter moves and positions that are focused on and philosophies of the system.
     
  6. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    Bill Murray! *slaps head* sorry guy. :redface:

    that reference wasn't an easy one to get but either way my bad for being a jerk.
     
  7. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    That's exactly it. Like you said, I've trained traditional gi BJJ with Kurt at Ralph Gracies, and Sergio Silva's. It's NOT the same. Kurt brought in a judoka to teach throws, and Sergio brought in a wrestler to teach takedowns, so respect to those guys, because they recognize the importance of takedowns.

    El Ninos doesn't need to bring in experts to teach us takedowns, because it's already their core competency.

    Remember the shoulder strap detail from the Gable training video #4 out of the series of something, the premise being staying tight is more important than elevating on a high c or outside single before the finish? Jake/Gil covered those details in depth. That's not something you're going to get from a vast majority of BJJ places. And no, because you "practice takedowns" here and there it's not the same.

    If this thread had been about Jake handing out belts or something everyone would be crying about how it's not BJJ since we don't wear a gi. It's a double standard.
     
  8. BuenoEx

    BuenoEx Yellow Belt

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    Thanks for that. I will probably be alone in this but I actually do think that GJJ was basically just judo until they changed the rules of contest. I also think that judo was just jujutsu until they did the same. Until those things happened that made them different games they were just variations of an existing art. SAMBO is not Bohk or Kures or judo. It has elements of them but it has its own ruleset and developed a separate identity from them. It may be that I came from a fragmented art background where there are literally thousands of family styles under the umbrella of one art that gives me this perspective.

    That said, I can't wait to see where Shields and Melendez take this. From what you've described in this thread, the training sounds great! I am also curious to see what guys like Jon Fitch decide to do. As more US wrestlers begin to study bjj and submission grappling and more judoka in Asia begin to train in those skill sets as well, I wonder what developments will occur. Are we going to see changes in the ruleset where certain throws/takedowns count more than others? Or where pins get one time points rather than positions, like in freestyle SAMBO?
     
  9. fan of fanboys

    fan of fanboys Green Belt

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    Looks like AJJ never took off and became a thing
     
  10. shunyata

    shunyata Black Belt

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    And yet, we're all here practicing live jiu jitsu in America.

    I've often thought, at what point do we drop the word Brazilian?
     
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  11. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Because of branding and competition rules, at the moment American jiu jitsu has the image of a fat dude with a poney tail wearing a black gi with a coral belt at thet age of 39 years who is guilty of larping away with some bs self defense stuff.
     
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  12. Quebec Nick

    Quebec Nick Green Belt

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    I always talk about it by saying Jiu Jitsu, but there's the local Judo club that calls is self defense program jiu jitsu and there's another japanese jiu jitsu school in the area so sometimes I need to clarify by saying that I do Brazilian jiu jitsu or just by saying:'' no I do the real stuff, I do BJJ''

    I would love to just call it grappling, because I do as much no gi that I do gi training, but it's way too generic and people won't relate if they are not martial arts ''connaisseurs''
     
  13. shunyata

    shunyata Black Belt

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    All of my long term coaches have been American or Armenian.

    If I stop in to train at a Gracie Barra while travelling, while it's easier to say "yes I have BJJ experience" it's not technically accurate.

    But then again I'd get some really confused jiujitero in that same Gracie Barra for trying to explain "yes I have no gi grappling and judo experience and a purple belt in Armenian Jiu Jitsu."




    Japanese Jiu Jitsu, just as bad.

    Personally I feel like Brazilian isn't the best adjective to describe what we're doing anymore.

    Live Jiu Jitsu, or Competitive Jiu Jitsu would be more accurate for the worldwide grappling scene.

    I've seen JJJ classes, they didn'tt let anyone roll. Went to one at the Y once, they do forward rolls in the warm up with an ultra specific aikido style, I forward roll judo style and all of a sudden a "brown belt" pulls me out of the warm up because I'm clearly going to hurt myself.

    I explain to him I can roll that way on the concrete and it's fine. No it's not fine, only the larp way is acceptable.

    We spent the next 30 minutes on his larp aikido version of a technical standup. The whole time I'm looking around and there's no live training at all. Never went back. It made a kids judo class look hardcore.


    So for me, it isn't that what we're all training is Brazilian, it's that it's alive.

    Like Muay Thai vs Communist Wushu (comrades cannot fight comrades!) it's the liveness that makes all the difference in the world.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018 at 8:08 AM
  14. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    All right,
    If you train bjj, you can say that you train jiu jitsu.....but I doubt there would be a need to add American in front of it .
    Unless you were competing and belonging to an American federation with such unique rules that it differs from bjj.

    When you go to Brasil, they just call it jiu jitsu . The only reason .for the differing ion was because Japanese ju jitsu was already established
     
  15. Cappy Goodtime

    Cappy Goodtime Hide yo wife. Hide yo neck.

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    Do they really?

    They're so nationalistic I figured they've always called it Brazilian.
     
  16. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    It is like that.

    When you go eat food in China, they just call it food. They don't call it Chinese food.

    I can tell who are the newbies as they refer to bjj when they talk as bjj as the abriviation
    Ijust say ziu zitsu. I never add Brazilian in front.
     
  17. Cash Bill 52

    Cash Bill 52 Brown Belt

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    I always say that I watch American football on Sundays.

    Btw... jake is still a monster grappling at the highest levels. I’ve trained with so many legends. Jake dominated me more than any other.
     
  18. grapplejuice

    grapplejuice Orange Belt

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    Me too. He's tough on his feet but on the mat, I've never felt so helpless.
     
  19. andrewm2211

    andrewm2211 Orange Belt

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    Really ? I tried searching it and just found a site selling clothes and describing it as a brand. Couldn’t find a school that did they were teaching American jj except one
     

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