American Jiu-Jitsu

Thats all well and fine, but those guys are the exception, not the rule. You can call what you do what you want. Jake/Gil are paying homage to their wrestling background and base, and I said in another thread, I am NOT the guy to question it, since we all have that in common... Cali Wrestling baby. Anyway now you guys now how close minded judoka feel I guess. They hate bjj like you all hate on AJJ. You'll get over it though, or just learn to deal with it.

why would we hate on it? all they're doing is BJJ :D
 
Thats all well and fine, but those guys are the exception, not the rule. You can call what you do what you want. Jake/Gil are paying homage to their wrestling background and base, and I said in another thread, I am NOT the guy to question it, since we all have that in common... Cali Wrestling baby. Anyway now you guys now how close minded judoka feel I guess. They hate bjj like you all hate on AJJ. You'll get over it though, or just learn to deal with it.

Judo guys have guard, hence they are as good as BJJ guys right? The logic that is used is sometimes baffling!
 
So, if I have a strong top game with wrestling takedowns I am practicing American Jiu Jitsu? Somebody better tell Rigan Machado. While you're at it, tell Romero Jacare he got his black belt in AJJ because that was Rolles' as well. I mean, how else can you explain a bjj school that requires takedowns? Ze Mario better strip that Brasa BJJ logo off his window. Seriously, stop being obtuse. These sports/arts/skill sets are defined by ruleset. So SAMBO = / = judo = / = bjj = / = wrestling. If you are using a different tactic to compete in the same ruleset, it isn't a different game. It's just a different strategy.
 
So, if I have a strong top game with wrestling takedowns I am practicing American Jiu Jitsu? Somebody better tell Rigan Machado. While you're at it, tell Romero Jacare he got his black belt in AJJ because that was Rolles' as well. I mean, how else can you explain a bjj school that requires takedowns? Ze Mario better strip that Brasa BJJ logo off his window. Seriously, stop being obtuse. These sports/arts/skill sets are defined by ruleset. So SAMBO = / = judo = / = bjj = / = wrestling. If you are using a different tactic to compete in the same ruleset, it isn't a different game. It's just a different strategy.

OK therefore before GJJ had rules and they were taught Maeda JJ or Kano Ryu JJ or Judo for that matter there was no need to call it GJJ, right?
Different tactic under the same ruleset and all that jazz...
 
Very different ruleset. There are no ippon throws in bjj. Had they been the same game then Helio's epic battle with Kimura would have been over with the first throw and this thread never would have happened.
 
Very different ruleset. There are no ippon throws in bjj. Had they been the same game then Helio's epic battle with Kimura would have been over with the first throw and this thread never would have happened.

Yes but Judo/JJ they were taught is FAR different than the Judo we now see in the olympics hence no need for the name change. While they did have an Ippon it had to be a perfect throw otherwise the fight could continue on the mat with no limit on how long they can remain there, unlike what we see today. The ground work in Judo back then would have been indistinguishable from the GJJ that was being developed back then with the exception of LESS focus on the throw itself.
 
I agree and disagree. The rules of judo are different now but according to the Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (1905). Helio would have been out due to pin as well.

"2. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when his two shoulders and hips shall have touched the floor, provided that said contestant shall have reached this position on the floor through having been thrown down.

3. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when in such position on the floor, if said combatant cannot free himself from his opponent's arms within two seconds' time."

This is hardly the patient style we see from Gracie. They are different rulesets.
 
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I agree and disagree. The rules of judo are different now but according to the Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (1905). Helio would have been out due to pin as well.

"2. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when his two shoulders and hips shall have touched the floor, provided that said contestant shall have reached this position on the floor through having been thrown down.

3. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when in such position on the floor, if said combatant cannot free himself from his opponent's arms within two seconds' time."

This is hardly the patient style we see from Gracie. They are different rulesets.
the only thing AJJ is lacking is a different ruleset which they could easily create if they felt like it but it is as different a system of training as Judo and GJJ was back in the day.

The pin is acknowledged as bad in both the Judo ruleset and GJJ rules just applied in a different manner, time on the ground was not limited hence the guard would have been prevalent. In other words if you get taken down go to guard, do not let them pass or you lose, instead of losing points. Not different enough to warrant a completely different name... Its like pee wee football often does not make use of the field goal, aside from that its the same sport.

I would like to add that I am not saying GJJ should not be GJJ as opposed to Judo but if that is the case then AJJ also has that same right based on my argument in my last few posts.
 
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If one thing can cause you to lose in one game outright but only awards points in another, they are different games. Also dojime was illegal which changes the closed guard game immensely. I see what you mean on the PeeWee rules but I think it is bigger than that. More like greco and folkstyle. Both are wrestling, but totally different rulesets and games. That isn't to say that there is no crossover between the two, it is just they are different games.

Now, if Shields and Melendez come up with a ruleset and compete under it, after some years you will see a divergence as the focus in training changes to more easily play to the ruleset. That's why GJJ/BJJ, SAMBO and judo are now as distinct as they are. The ruleset was tailored for the skill set and over time the skill set gets tailored for the ruleset. AJJ is a skill set found in BJJ and also SAMBO and judo. If it wants to be separate, it needs a ruleset to showcase its differences. Until then, it's just marketing.
 
Very different ruleset. There are no ippon throws in bjj. Had they been the same game then Helio's epic battle with Kimura would have been over with the first throw and this thread never would have happened.

By your logic kata guruma is no longer Judo :icon_neut
 
Not in the eyes of the IJF, however, there are other organizations that use pre-2010 rules as well as pre-1968 rule sets. Also judo has the extra wrinkle that the other grappling sports do not and that is kata. Kata guruma is in the nage no kata and as long as that is a requirement for shodan, kata guruma will be considered judo. Effective, pressure tested kata guruma will probably be another story.

Sorry, I meant the 1961 rule set.
 
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Now, if Shields and Melendez come up with a ruleset and compete under it, after some years you will see a divergence as the focus in training changes to more easily play to the ruleset. That's why GJJ/BJJ, SAMBO and judo are now as distinct as they are. The ruleset was tailored for the skill set and over time the skill set gets tailored for the ruleset. AJJ is a skill set found in BJJ and also SAMBO and judo. If it wants to be separate, it needs a ruleset to showcase its differences. Until then, it's just marketing.


Not necessary. Those rulesets can be found where the founders currently compete or have competed at. Or is everyone who ever competes at submission grappling like ADCC doing zhu zhitsu1!? Kerr, Tito, Hughes, Monson, Shields... bee jay jay?? Only on Sherdog is winning ADCC and being an MMA champ fighting on the biggest stages and dominating at at the highest levels not good enough for to get respect :rolleyes:


Also, consider the focus on MMA. El Nino doesn't do alot of pure grappling, but it is his gym, and he's a fighter, point blank. The way he utilizes his wrestling in MMA is among the best in the business. The bottom line is those guys have rediculous amounts of credibility, and to think there are internet rejects thinking they can invalidate what what the **** they do sickens me.

They can call what they do Monkey Kung Fu. I sure as hell am not going to question it. I'll just be happy it's only a hundred bucks a month and that the 44 can get me there in 30 min.
 
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By your logic kata guruma is no longer Judo :icon_neut

By your logic, it and morote gari's inclusion in the judo syllabus should have sprouted another art rather than expanding an existing one..
 
By your logic, it and morote gari's inclusion in the judo syllabus should have sprouted another art rather than expanding an existing one..

By your logic, BJJ should still be called Judo.
 
Not necessary. Those rulesets can be found where the founders currently compete or have competed at. Or is everyone who ever competes at submission grappling like ADCC doing zhu zhitsu1!? Kerr, Tito, Hughes, Monson, Shields... bee jay jay?? Only on Sherdog is winning ADCC and being an MMA champ fighting on the biggest stages and dominating at at the highest levels not good enough for to get respect :rolleyes:


Also, consider the focus on MMA. El Nino doesn't do alot of pure grappling, but it is his gym, and he's a fighter, point blank. The way he utilizes his wrestling in MMA is among the best in the business. The bottom line is those guys have rediculous amounts of credibility, and to think there are internet rejects thinking they can invalidate what what the **** they do sickens me.

They can call what they do Monkey Kung Fu, and I'll just be happy it's only a hundred bucks a month and that the 44 can get me there in 30 min.

Lighten up, Francis. Nowhere in any of my posts are any of those guys disrespected. As for ADCC, no, not everyone who competes and wins is BJJ practitioner. But I can't help but notice that four of your five examples you listed train BJJ with BJJ black belts. At least two of them have gone on to earn their black belts. I've trained with a person on your list and you know what he was working on most of the time? It wasn't an aggressive top game, it was his bottom game.

As for Melendez, he has great wrestling for MMA. His defense and scrambles are great. But this isn't about wrestling, remember. This is about AJJ.
 
Lighten up, Francis. Nowhere in any of my posts are any of those guys disrespected. As for ADCC, no, not everyone who competes and wins is BJJ practitioner. But I can't help but notice that four of your five examples you listed train BJJ with BJJ black belts. At least two of them have gone on to earn their black belts. I've trained with a person on your list and you know what he was working on most of the time? It wasn't an aggressive top game, it was his bottom game.

As for Melendez, he has great wrestling for MMA. His defense and scrambles are great. But this isn't about wrestling, remember. This is about AJJ.


Who the hell is francis? Talk shit to your tramp sister, but me, I'd prefer not to be called out of my name.

My point is to say that whatever they call what they do is fine by me. I'm not gonna question it. That's for you nerds.
 
As for Melendez, he has great wrestling for MMA. His defense and scrambles are great. But this isn't about wrestling, remember. This is about AJJ.

Man, I watched from the stands as he beat Baret Yoshida at ADCC 2005. His SUBMISSION wrestling looked pretty good then.
 
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