American Jiu-Jitsu

lmfao!! you guys are freaking hilarious. for the record two of my favorite posters. After your fight come back in here and let's all be friends again, lol...



knox: agreed on the points scoring. If someone has me in mount and I bridge back to top position, it should definitely be worth something. Also I will always be a staunch advocate for high amp throws getting the points they deserve.

LOL..I win. Again! :)

Anyway yes, that is where there are differences in scoring and where I THINK (based on every interview from JS) he is going. Wrestling mindest, wrestling mentality even some wrestling positions but BJJ subs and passing.

Here is a good rule of thumb...if you have a separate class, separate teacher or call it something different it is LIKELY (not always true dont want to stereotype) a different art. :)

So if your BJJ club has a "wrestling class" then "wrestling" is not really part of the BJJ curriculum, like so many are claiming here, otherwise it would just be BJJ class..

I have yet to attend a wrestling practice that says now we are going to work (Insert style name) when doing ground work, it is always still wrestling!!!!!!
 
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Ignore list lol... So Jimmy isn't reading what Knox is writing??? Is that how ignore works???

Do I get to wear a gi in American Jiu jitsu?
 
Ignore list lol... So Jimmy isn't reading what Knox is writing??? Is that how ignore works???

Do I get to wear a gi in American Jiu jitsu?

lol you tell us--don't you train at the same gym as Jake?
 
lol you tell us--don't you train at the same gym as Jake?

lol...

Jake is too busy fighting to be the vanguard of a new martial art. At least for now.

For the record, I have rolled with Jake in a gi. He is not a fan...
 
If someone has me in mount and I bridge back to top position, it should definitely be worth something.

I have to disagree on this part. I have heard it suggested before but I disagree with getting rewarded in any way (point/advantage) for escapes. If you are put into a bad position (like the mount on bottom) and you escape, it does not make sense to be rewarded for the reversal. You are in a bad position and in danger and it is your obligation/duty to get out and put yourself into a better one. Escaping the bad position and ending up in a better situation should be your "reward" for getting out.

Imagine if points were very close and somebody got the win because they pulled off a mount escape.
 
I have to disagree on this part. I have heard it suggested before but I disagree with getting rewarded in any way (point/advantage) for escapes. If you are put into a bad position (like the mount on bottom) and you escape, it does not make sense to be rewarded for the reversal. You are in a bad position and in danger and it is your obligation/duty to get out and put yourself into a better one. Escaping the bad position and ending up in a better situation should be your "reward" for getting out.

Imagine if points were very close and somebody got the win because they pulled off a mount escape.

There are 2 ways to think about this situation though.

We can look at it like you did and say what you did or we can flip it.

If I manage to put you in that position then shouldn't i be able to finish or at the very least keep you down? If the man on bottom can escape then I have not done my job. Granted it is a small amount of points but yes it can affect the match.

Again this is a hypothetical match based on a combo style rather than strictly one style.
 
Brazilian jiu jitsu is judo, simply. That`s it. So why do we get to call it Brazilian jiu jitsu?

Because it was under this banner, and nationality, that it developed into something of its own and quite different from what was out there and became relevant.

"American" Jiu Jitsu is not different from everything else out there, like BJJ was no different than judo ( and isnt, discounting the rules in competition and focusing strictly on techniques used), but BJJ was historically and in practice it is very different from judo, whereas AJJ is.... what is it anyway?

What has " American" JJ done to be relevant? To assert itself as a considerable deviation from the original style?

That is ridiculous. Maybe the day will come that AJJ will exist, a BJJ with ephasis on greco roman wrestling and freestyle wrestling.

But it has years to go and many battles to fight in order to evolve, me significantly different, succesful and relevant enough in order to call itself something of the sort.
 
Brazilian jiu jitsu is judo, simply. That`s it. So why do we get to call it Brazilian jiu jitsu?

Because it was under this banner, and nationality, that it developed into something of its own and quite different from what was out there and became relevant.

"American" Jiu Jitsu is not different from everything else out there, like BJJ was no different than judo ( and isnt, discounting the rules in competition and focusing strictly on techniques used), but BJJ was historically and in practice it is very different from judo, whereas AJJ is.... what is it anyway?

What has " American" JJ done to be relevant? To assert itself as a considerable deviation from the original style?

That is ridiculous. Maybe the day will come that AJJ will exist, a BJJ with ephasis on greco roman wrestling and freestyle wrestling.

But it has years to go and many battles to fight in order to evolve, me significantly different, succesful and relevant enough in order to call itself something of the sort.

I dont neccessarily agree.

The style already trains no gi...that is a major deviation from BJJ in and of itself. Not the fact that they train no gi but the fact they dont appear to use the gi at all.

Next, it is one thing to have a "top down" mentality but who REALLY has the skills to exploit that mentality? I am sure if/when JS starts teaching again we will discover that those he trains will indeed be very capable of executing that game plan.


That is why I thinks JS considers it a different system. I tend to agree.

You had some good points in your post DK but I think they actually HELP the AJJ argument as opposed to harm it.
 
Every BJJ school trains in no gi, and has trained since the beginning.


Like I said, I believe that there will be eventually something called American Jiu Jitsu. Grappling does not belong to us, and neither do the techniques. BJJ is Judo, like I said, simply put.

So yes, I can see AJJ coming as a different style of grappling and developing in such a manner over the course of the next couple decades. There are tremendous differences between a greco-freestyle-top oriented jiu jitsu, "standard" BJJ, and Gracie Jiu Jitsu.


But right now, there is no such a thing as American Jiu Jitsu. The difference in mentality does not constitute a different martial art, and grappling as a whole is so widespread, information is disseminated so quickly that the art does not have a chance to incubate and develop independently from everything else in order to become different enough to call itself a different "style", or a different martial art.

I am proud of BJJ, but it isn`t ours. And americans have every right to do what they want with it and change it and call it their own, very much like we did. You even have the tools and the background to do it succesfully.


But now? Too soon. Not different enough, not distinguished enough, not relevant enough.
 
Every BJJ school trains in no gi, and has trained since the beginning.


Like I said, I believe that there will be eventually something called American Jiu Jitsu. Grappling does not belong to us, and neither do the techniques. BJJ is Judo, like I said, simply put.

So yes, I can see AJJ coming as a different style of grappling and developing in such a manner over the course of the next couple decades. There are tremendous differences between a greco-freestyle-top oriented jiu jitsu, "standard" BJJ, and Gracie Jiu Jitsu.


But right now, there is no such a thing as American Jiu Jitsu. The difference in mentality does not constitute a different martial art, and grappling as a whole is so widespread, information is disseminated so quickly that the art does not have a chance to incubate and develop independently from everything else in order to become different enough to call itself a different "style", or a different martial art.

I am proud of BJJ, but it isn`t ours. And americans have every right to do what they want with it and change it and call it their own, very much like we did. You even have the tools and the background to do it succesfully.


But now? Too soon. Not different enough, not distinguished enough, not relevant enough.
I will counter your points and then we can agree to disagree. You say that every BJJ school trains no gi, that is true..but how many do not use the gi at all?

You say the difference in mentality does not constitute a different martial art but I say the ability to execute your mentality does! Straight BJJ cannot execute that mentality against someone trained to defend takedowns very well. There are several examples out there but the ability for a BJJ artist (especially before moving judo and wrestling coaches in house) to take down a good or even decent wrestler or judoka was the exception, not the norm. So Gary Goodrich may decide today to adopt a mentality to teach his students to take guys down and submit them but is he CAPABLE of consistently executing that mentality or demostrating that mentality?

The answer is no. BJJ, especially old school BJJ had just enough takedown to get an untrained guy to the mat. Thats it. Everyone else they relied on to take THEM down in order to finish the fight.

Lets examine 2 world champion BJJ players. Murillo Bustamante and Fabio Gurgel.
Both of these men were the cream of the crop in regards to BJJ. Multiple world titles, black belts under respected teachers. Murillo trained under Carlson who had the "mentality" no one can argue this. Fabio is one professor removed from probably the best wrestler the family had, Rolls Gracie..BOTH of these men are just 3 instructors removed from Count Koma himself!!

They both faced an opponent and one won and one lost, Jerry Bohlander.

Jerry Bohlanders claim to fame was being a Lions Den Product and fought both of these men as a relative newcomer to MMA. He was a fresh faced 23 or 24 year old when he went up against these world champions. In addition Jerry had a 5th place finish in the CA sectionals. Not a bad wrestler but he did not even place at state.
So he was not even close to world class or "black belt level" in wrestling.

In the fight with Murillo he was able to counter every takedown Murillo tried. It was a guard pull that got them to the mat. In essence he turned Murillo from a BJJ black belt to a boxer for about 5 minutes. At the end Busta won the fight via upkick. Terrific! He won and he used BJJ to do it BUT his take them down mindset did not work against what most would consider an above average wrestler, that is it.

In the fight with Gurgel it was much worse. Gurgel is also a world champion in BJJ. His instructor was trained by Rolls himself who was a very capable wrestler. In this fight Gurgel could not take down Bohlander nor could he counter Bohlanders takedowns. In fact Bohlander had very good control of the entire fight from the top. While he did not Hurt Gurgel, gurgel could not do much if anything with Jerry. In other words, he may have had the mentality but not the ability to execute.
In other words a man who was probably not in the top 20 in CA in HIGH SCHOOL was able to "outwrestle" (not outfight) 2 of the best BJJ guys in the world?

My point being if world champions cannot execute that "mindset" versus average to above average fighters that train for it what makes you think it is part of the "system". It is part of the system only in theory.

Now on to AJJ Shields is a very capable wrestler, he is vary capable at Jiujitsu he CAN execute his mindset even against the stiffest competition. He has the skills to do it. In order to do that you have to had trained differently at some point, if you want to have students be able to do what you do you have to train them in a manner to do it.

Listen I have a mindset that I can run 30 miles. I dont train that way, therefore cant.

We have seen BB world champs get stuffed by HS and JR College wrestlers yet I am being asked to believe that "Oh we train this way all the time."

I am sorry but if that is true, something has to change because it is not being effective.


-----Before anyone points out the handful of BJJ guys that are awesome at takedowns, 1st realize they are the BEST out there, they are not the norm, for every one of them there are 1000 that are horrible...2nd most train a completely separate system to improve their takedown game..For instance no one looked at Gonzaga's inability to takedown his opponents and say "He really has to improve on his BJJ takedowns!" 3rd wrestling is not just takedowns and td defense.
 
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We don`t disagree at all on any major points. The only argument I have against calling AJJ that is that it hasn`t grown as a separate entity enough and isn`t distinct enough from regular grappling with good wrestling skills.

Shields`s initiative is fair, it is exactly what Helio and Carlos did, is it not? You take what was taught to you, you add your own, and then you stamp it with your name.

I just think it will take a little more time for the distinction between BJJ and "AJJ" to be more finely outlined, as more and more fighters use their greco and wrestling as power tools in their grappling and it does indeed become a completely different style from what we saw 20 years ago.

I`ll go a step further and add that the emphasis on freestyle and greco are the single greatest development in BJJ since Helio started playing guard offensively back in the 1930s. So, thank you Mark Kerr, Randy Couture, all you guys.


Another thing, BJJ is not static. It also is evolving and absorbig whilst still being brazilian jiu jitsu.

But hell, if americans are the ones doing the absorbing and changing, call it your own, it`s only fair.

Problem is, we might have two different "styles" that are exactly the same and just differing in where they come from.
 
We don`t disagree at all on any major points. The only argument I have against calling AJJ that is that it hasn`t grown as a separate entity enough and isn`t distinct enough from regular grappling with good wrestling skills.

Shields`s initiative is fair, it is exactly what Helio and Carlos did, is it not? You take what was taught to you, you add your own, and then you stamp it with your name.

I just think it will take a little more time for the distinction between BJJ and "AJJ" to be more finely outlined, as more and more fighters use their greco and wrestling as power tools in their grappling and it does indeed become a completely different style from what we saw 20 years ago.

I`ll go a step further and add that the emphasis on freestyle and greco are the single greatest development in BJJ since Helio started playing guard offensively back in the 1930s. So, thank you Mark Kerr, Randy Couture, all you guys.


Another thing, BJJ is not static. It also is evolving and absorbig whilst still being brazilian jiu jitsu.

But hell, if americans are the ones doing the absorbing and changing, call it your own, it`s only fair.

Problem is, we might have two different "styles" that are exactly the same and just differing in where they come from.
Well hell! Stop arguing with me then!

LOL

:)
 
bandeira_brasil.jpg


ahem, ill just leave this here.....
 
this is retarded, there is no such thing as AJJ, it's just a bunch of American wrestlers who want to stamp a big ol' USA flag on jiu jitsu so they don't have to call what they do a "Brazilian" art
 
Well, it’s not like I used the F word or anything. But he is playing dumb and beating around the bush and going in circles instead of just seeing what is clearly on his face just so he can keep face.

But talking about attitude:



I guess attitude is ok as long as it is not coming against you and your buddy?

By the way,



BJJ has been done without the gi in Brazil since before you were born.

Besides we don’t need this AJJ, we already have Nogi/Submission grappling and BJJ. This covers both ends of the spectrum more than enough.







See what I’m talking about Fourfif? He just doesn't want to see it or he is...

Ok Knox, let me try to break it down and spell it out for you in simpler terms. The reason the Judo federation recognizes Maeda as their pioneer is because HE IS the first person to bring Judo to Brazil, whether it was called Judo or not or he introduced it as Judo or Jiu-Jitsu, it WAS what we know today as Judo and he WAS the first! It makes no sense to recognize the first person to taught the art as Judo when what Maeda taught was the same, just called by an also accepted name at the time. He didn’t teach one group JJ and the other Judo. He taught JJ and that was what would have to become known as Judo later, but he was the first, so he is the pioneer. A pioneer is just somebody who is the first. Maeda was the first known person to step on Brazilian soil to teach the grappling art who he called JJ and later on changed into Judo. So he is the pioneer. Get it? If you still don’t get, I’m sorry man but you are either clowning, drunk or just in denial to keep face. In either case I’m done explaining that to you. Do some research, or don't and just go on in denial.



I didn’t carefully skip anything. I just don’t know what you were on about. My point was that Shields is not an ultra uber awesome fighter to create any martial art. If you are going to create a new martial art you should be the first example that that martial arts is good. Shields is a competent fighter and nothing more. He is not bad but he isn’t great either. Anderson Silva he ain’t. His performance at UFC 121 shows that. The first time he fights in an organization which has top fighters he sucked. He was good at Strikeforce because the level there is much lower. You “invent” a martial art and get your ass whooped, do you really have enough skill and knowledge to create a martial art? Anybody can create a new style. You, I, my 7 years old nephew. But does it make sense if even you can’t use your badass style to avoid getting whooped? That was my point and then you brought in old timers and what not.



Oh, and you thought he would just come out and say “Yes, my style is just a needless rename of BJJ or Nogi Submission grappling”? LOL, of course he will say it’s a different style. He wants to promote it, grow it and cash in on it and be remembered as the “founder” to feed his ego.

Really dude, just bite away from Shields crotch already, or not. It’s up to you as long as you know that your “Grand Master” got owned by and couldn’t even submit a guy who isn’t even a grappling expert. A heck of a grappling expert this Jake Shields is.

Consider that before you decide you want to put in time to learn a style that this guy has “invented”.

Good luck to you. I’m done.



Oh, ok. So he does have a history here already? Oh, that explains a lot. Thanks for the heads up. I will no longer bother then.



Very adult and mature to post a Personal Message in public to help your cause. Can you fall any lower? Really?



Oh, so that’s what it is all about. Now it comes out. How old are you, 12?
Dude, win some real fights first, keyboard warriors are not actually tough or win anything actually.



Exactly! Very well put!

Let’s see how relevant AJJ will be or if it even survives. Several "new" styles have been created but few survived. At the moment we only have a so-so fighter who says he uses it. If JS goes on and becomes the next Fedor or Anderson Silva using “his” AJJ then maybe it will pick up some following. At the moment it’s just wishful thinking. Wake me up when AJJ is mainstream, has international following, international competitions or any competitions at all and has done anything to martial arts history as BJJ has.

koolaid.jpg



:)
 
Shields`s initiative is fair, it is exactly what Helio and Carlos did, is it not? You take what was taught to you, you add your own, and then you stamp it with your name.

Well, they didn't really renamed it. But about the change, there was a need for it. It was 1914 and there was not much around. Now we already have Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, Submission Grappling, do we really need another? Answer is: Jake Shields (and his sheep) does.
 
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