American Jiu-Jitsu

Can you win by throw in MMA? No. But you can outpoint you opponent by throwing him. Same in BJJ.

Regardless of your stories about premodern judoka supposedly killing each other with throws on wooden floors, the fact is that if you throw a fighter on his back he can keep fighting from his back. If you want the fight to be over, you have to finish him with strikes or a submission hold.

In the context of MMA, Jake's AJJ idea makes a bit more sense. BJJ is so far the most applicable grappling style for MMA because of the submissions, but guard pulling is not a good strategy in MMA, the striking makes it too dangerous. But if instead of passively accepting guard position like BJJ teaches you to do, AJJ emphasizes fighting for the TD, so it more closely reflects MMA grappling than either BJJ or freestyle wrestling can. Makes sense for MMA.
 
Can you win by throw in MMA? No. But you can outpoint you opponent by throwing him. Same in BJJ.

.

You know. the more I think about it the more I think it is better for BJJ.

So AJJ promote a top agressive game with extra double sauce of take down.

So be it.

Mark Laimon does not believe in the guard and he believes that you should scramble from the guard to a standing position. why? because he believes that the guard is bad position and back to stand up in the neutral position.

He does not matter if AJJ is about agressive takedown and top control, you still have to pass the freaking guard. and if your focus is on takedown, no chance to pass someone's guard that just keep training his guard.
 
American Jiu-Jitsu? WTF is that? Jiu-Jitsu which emphasizes a top game? Oh, you mean like Carlson Gracie who has ALWAYS given priority for top game in BJJ and all his students play the top game? Or is AJJ just a rip off of Luta-Livre?

Really, no matter what this AJJ is (obviously just another unnecessary renaming of something that already exists, for either pride, money or both) his AJJ was not all that supreme last Saturday when Kampmann moped the floor with Shields, while a guy like Demian Maia would have destroyed Kampmann.


But let it be. GSP will destroy Shields and send him back to fighting in lower tie events.

American Jiu-Jitsu. LOL.


I'm going to learn Golf, start wearing my baseball cap backwards and say I created a new sport.
 
American Jiu-Jitsu? WTF is that? Jiu-Jitsu which emphasizes a top game? Oh, you mean like Carlson Gracie who has ALWAYS given priority for top game in BJJ and all his students play the top game? Or is AJJ just a rip off of Luta-Livre?

Really, no matter what this AJJ is (obviously just another unnecessary renaming of something that already exists, for either pride, money or both) his AJJ was not all that supreme last Saturday when Kampmann moped the floor with Shields, while a guy like Demian Maia would have destroyed Kampmann.


But let it be. GSP will destroy Shields and send him back to fighting in lower tie events.

American Jiu-Jitsu. LOL.


I'm going to learn Golf, start wearing my baseball cap backwards and say I created a new sport.
You fail to see the point. Most any high level Judoka can teach 90% of the moves and positions that are in BJJ. In fact in the early years Judo used all kinds of guards, if have not seen some of the old masters clips or googled kosen Judo then do yourself a favor and view it.

So what is the difference then? The difference is the level of ability and a different mindset.

Just because you WANT to be aggressive and on top does not mean you have that ability at a high level. I dont understand why this point is lost on some people.

In essence and it is historically correct, BJJ is just a modified and evolved version of Judo and lets be real it is far more evolved and modified now than it was 20 years ago but it has always been known to us as BJJ. Why arent we butt hurt over the fact that they renamed Modified Judo BJJ?


So the Gracie clan learned one style- Judo...they continued to work on it and used what worked for THEM. Later they cross trained in some wrestling and even a touch of Sambo but by then the style was ALREADY known as BJJ even though the base came from one system...Judo....
Oh, now I see why you are all up in arms, it is not exactly what JS is doing.

I see how it is different, let me recap..
Jake learned one style- wrestling, later he learned BJJ and got his BB from Cesar Gracie in roughly 6 years. So he essentially from that point on trained gi-less ( a sure way to know you are doing BJJ, we all know that in BJJ the gi is of minor importance) then he changed th mindset from a relax and patient system "for the smaller weaker man" to a more aggressive system AND he brought the TOOLS to pull off this mindset.

Go figure, they did exactly the same thing. Hmmmmmm
 
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So what is the difference then? ...
Go figure, they did exactly the same thing. Hmmmmmm

The difference is BJJ wasn't "invented" by a boy with a few years of practice who can't even handle a second tier MMA striker. It was developed by a whole and huge family through what is almost 100 years now. A family with several members with several different body types, personalities and personal styles and a family which the members practicing BJJ undoubtedly dominated their opponents on the mat with such techniques. This is why BJJ has revolutionized martial arts, this is why BJJ is the fastest growing martial art (no, MMA is not a martial art, it is a rule set and you can argue that there wouldn't be MMA without BJJ, at least not as we know it today), this is why BJJ is a fundamental base for MMA and this is why we are having a grappling discussion at all on this forum.
"AJJ," when it's "founder" can't even hold his own in a sport match, let alone at something more realistic like a vale tudo match, will most likely not survive and never reach what BJJ has become because smart people see past the BS.
 
The difference is BJJ wasn't "invented" by a boy with a few years of practice who can't even handle a second tier MMA striker. It was developed by a whole and huge family through what is almost 100 years now. A family with several members with several different body types, personalities and personal styles and a family which the members practicing BJJ undoubtedly dominated their opponents on the mat with such techniques. This is why BJJ has revolutionized martial arts, this is why BJJ is the fastest growing martial art (no, MMA is not a martial art, it is a rule set and you can argue that there wouldn't be MMA without BJJ, at least not as we know it today), this is why BJJ is a fundamental base for MMA and this is why we are having a grappling discussion at all on this forum.
"AJJ," when it's "founder" can't even hold his own in a sport match, let alone at something more realistic like a vale tudo match, will most likely not survive and never reach what BJJ has become because smart people see past the BS.
Dude you are WRONG on so many levels.

1st it is clear you are drinking the cool aid.

2nd it was CALLED BJJ even though it was still largely Just Judo.

3rd do you think ANY of the ole timers could fight Jake Shields and win?

4th the BJJ you speak of is Judo with wrestling and as it adapts and grows and takes from other systems they plug it in, name it and then pretend it was there all along (farmaconda anyone?,lol)

5th BJJ is a terrific system but lets be real, they spent years and years training against and for different fighters from different systems. In other words by the time they faced a boxer they knew what the boxer would do, by the time they faced a wrestler they knew what they would do. Now that others have come along and learned what a "BJJ guy" will do they can counter it.

Listen BJJ or GJJ is not the only family or system or style that can tweak what they know to counter others.

Again, you cant have it both ways.

If AJJ is a rip off of BJJ and still BJJ then BJJ is a rip off of Judo and still Basically Just Judo.
 
Dude you are WRONG on so many levels.

1st it is clear you are drinking the cool aid.

2nd it was CALLED BJJ even though it was still largely Just Judo.

3rd do you think ANY of the ole timers could fight Jake Shields and win?

4th the BJJ you speak of is Judo with wrestling and as it adapts and grows and takes from other systems they plug it in, name it and then pretend it was there all along (farmaconda anyone?,lol)

5th BJJ is a terrific system but lets be real, they spent years and years training against and for different fighters from different systems. In other words by the time they faced a boxer they knew what the boxer would do, by the time they faced a wrestler they knew what they would do. Now that others have come along and learned what a "BJJ guy" will do they can counter it.

Listen BJJ or GJJ is not the only family or system or style that can tweak what they know to counter others.

Again, you cant have it both ways.

If AJJ is a rip off of BJJ and still BJJ then BJJ is a rip off of Judo and still Basically Just Judo.

+1

I wish people would just call it Jiu Jitsu.
 
+1

I wish people would just call it Jiu Jitsu.

Me too!

Here we are questioning shields.

In martial arts university shields holds a PHD.

He is a pro MMA fighter, and a good one!
He is a legit BB in BJJ.
He is a good wrestler, not international but very adept at wrestling.

Then we have a forum full of kindergartners from martial arts university telling the professor he is wrong.

Go figure!
 
The difference is BJJ wasn't "invented" by a boy with a few years of practice who can't even handle a second tier MMA striker. It was developed by a whole and huge family through what is almost 100 years now. A family with several members with several different body types, personalities and personal styles and a family which the members practicing BJJ undoubtedly dominated their opponents on the mat with such techniques. This is why BJJ has revolutionized martial arts, this is why BJJ is the fastest growing martial art (no, MMA is not a martial art, it is a rule set and you can argue that there wouldn't be MMA without BJJ, at least not as we know it today), this is why BJJ is a fundamental base for MMA and this is why we are having a grappling discussion at all on this forum.
"AJJ," when it's "founder" can't even hold his own in a sport match, let alone at something more realistic like a vale tudo match, will most likely not survive and never reach what BJJ has become because smart people see past the BS.

Now you are just hating. Kampmann was top 5 before losing to Jake Shields. Beating him, even by SD, is a huge achievement.
 
Can you win by throw in MMA? No. But you can outpoint you opponent by throwing him. Same in BJJ.

Disproportionate risk to reward ratio-

Regardless of your stories about premodern judoka supposedly killing each other with throws on wooden floors, the fact is that if you throw a fighter on his back he can keep fighting from his back. If you want the fight to be over, you have to finish him with strikes or a submission hold.

Sure if you throw a man on his back on a soft surface on a 1 on 1 situation, he can keep fighting. If you think that somehow judo is more restricted on his own game than BJJ its on its own, then you are delusional, rules are there for a reason.

If your logic was true then wrestling which is by comparison to judo even more restricted would suck for MMA.

In the context of MMA, Jake's AJJ idea makes a bit more sense. BJJ is so far the most applicable grappling style for MMA because of the submissions,

Oh really? Hasn't Galvao just lost to a wrestler? the fact remains that if you can't strike or wrestle your BJJ its completely useless.

but guard pulling is not a good strategy in MMA, the striking makes it too dangerous. But if instead of passively accepting guard position like BJJ teaches you to do, AJJ emphasizes fighting for the TD, so it more closely reflects MMA grappling than either BJJ or freestyle wrestling can. Makes sense for MMA.

Exactly, so why can't AJJ be its own style? somehow BJJ which until the last 20 years looked exactly like Judo but with a different emphasis and mentality is different but AJJ is not?

The difference is BJJ wasn't "invented" by a boy with a few years of practice who can't even handle a second tier MMA striker. It was developed by a whole and huge family through what is almost 100 years now.

and by crosstraining and fighting with even more people, yet until big tournaments came in, it was basically judo newaza, if you see how Royce fought and how BJJ matches are fought today, there is a lot of different yet they are the same art.

A family with several members with several different body types, personalities and personal styles and a family which the members practicing BJJ undoubtedly dominated their opponents on the mat with such techniques.

In the USA, they were not dominating everyone in Brazil or Japan, well Rickson did well against pro-wrestlers in Japan, but lets be real, Saku would had destroyed him.

This is why BJJ has revolutionized martial arts, this is why BJJ is the fastest growing martial art (no, MMA is not a martial art, it is a rule set and you can argue that there wouldn't be MMA without BJJ, at least not as we know it today)

In the USA. I like that BJJ opened a lot of eyes to submission fighting, but it was nothing new under the sun for other countries, just a different approach, a small tweak. Yet nobody is questioning legitimacy.

this is why BJJ is a fundamental base for MMA and this is why we are having a grappling discussion at all on this forum.
"AJJ," when it's "founder" can't even hold his own in a sport match, let alone at something more realistic like a vale tudo match, will most likely not survive and never reach what BJJ has become because smart people see past the BS.

Im seeing BJJ "specialists" get destroyed by american wrestlers who know what an armbar is, the fact is that BJJ was so dominant because lets be real, Americans didn't knew what it was or how to counter them.

Now that everyone knows BJJ, you can't simply win on BJJ, you need to train wrestling and striking, at least to be able to defend against them.
 
Dude you are WRONG on so many levels.

Am I?

1st it is clear you are drinking the cool aid.

No cool aid here. Just facts!

2nd it was CALLED BJJ even though it was still largely Just Judo.

It was never called BJJ actually. For the record, in Brazil it’s all just Jiu-Jitsu. It was here in the international community that it started being called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Do you really think the Brazilians call it BJJ? In Brazil, Gracie is pretty much a school, as is Nova Uniao etc. Fadda, Gracie is all Jiu-Jitsu for them.
Also, the Brazilians didn’t rename their style. Kano renamed his. If Kano hadn’t changed the name to Judo both would still be called the same. Or if Maeda had gone to Brazil AFTER Judo had been renamed, maybe today we would call it Brazilian Judo instead.

3rd do you think ANY of the ole timers could fight Jake Shields and win?

Would they beat him for sure? Nobody can tell. A fight is a fight. Could they beat him? Most definitely! Look at Maia for example. He is the closest thing we have to the “old timers” today and apart from Anderson, he hasn’t been out classed yet. He OWNED Sonnen! Kampmann totally man handled Shields to a controversial split decision. Now throw Shields in a Vale Tudo match like the “old timers” used to fight in, with no time limits, no weight division, and basically no rules (specially compared to how safe MMA is today) and see how Shields would do.


4th the BJJ you speak of is Judo with wrestling and as it adapts and grows and takes from other systems they plug it in, name it and then pretend it was there all along (farmaconda anyone?,lol)

Who renamed it? Again, Kano renamed his style and again in Brazil it’s all just Jiu-Jitsu. Now there are obviously opportunistic people who will try to cash in. Nothing different from Marco Ruas calling his style “Ruas Vale Tudo” while it was just Luta-Livre or Machida starting calling his style Machida Karate, while it was just Shotokan with MMA strategy and off course the marketing BS that Rorion does. But this is exactly what Shields and people like Ed Bravo is doing. Totally nonsense and pointless. Besides, if you are going to “create” a new style in this day and age where creating anything with enough new to justify a rename is basically impossible, you might at least be the ultimate unbeatable badass. A guy like Anderson Silva or Fedor could at least do it without looking too foolish. But Shields? Spare me. Shields is BJJ with MMA strategy. It’s not like doubles, singles and top position priority wasn’t in BJJ already. The only excuse for renaming is cash in and ego trip.
Many top Jiu-Jitsu players have developed guards and other moves but they didn't rename their style.



5th BJJ is a terrific system but lets be real, they spent years and years training against and for different fighters from different systems. In other words by the time they faced a boxer they knew what the boxer would do, by the time they faced a wrestler they knew what they would do. Now that others have come along and learned what a "BJJ guy" will do they can counter it.

Really? Humm, Maia is doing just fine. If Maia was fighting in Strikeforce he would probably hold the belt. But this is beside the point. I’m not pimping BJJ here or even here to defend it. I’m saying that renaming something that already exists is just stupid.


Again, you cant have it both ways.

I’m not. You seem to be. Brazilians didn’t rename their style just to be different. Kano renamed his. But Jiu-Jitsu and Judo have more differences among them than this BS AJJ does to BJJ.

If AJJ is a rip off of BJJ and still BJJ then BJJ is a rip off of Judo and still Basically Just Judo.

No, BJJ is not a rip of of Judo. BJJ is old Judo! That’s why it still even uses the old name Judo used to use. It did evolve in a different direction than Judo did and picked up stuff Judo didn’t have. But if the Brazilians would have renamed it they would definitely use a Portuguese name rather than keeping a name that at the time people couldn’t probably even pronounce!



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Am I?



No cool aid here. Just facts!



It was never called BJJ actually. For the record, in Brazil it’s all just Jiu-Jitsu. It was here in the international community that it started being called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Do you really think the Brazilians call it BJJ? In Brazil, Gracie is pretty much a school, as is Nova Uniao etc. Fadda, Gracie is all Jiu-Jitsu for them.
Also, the Brazilians didn’t rename their style. Kano renamed his. If Kano hadn’t changed the name to Judo both would still be called the same. Or if Maeda had gone to Brazil AFTER Judo had been renamed, maybe today we would call it Brazilian Judo instead.



Would they beat him for sure? Nobody can tell. A fight is a fight. Could they beat him? Most definitely! Look at Maia for example. He is the closest thing we have to the “old timers” today and apart from Anderson, he hasn’t been out classed yet. He OWNED Sonnen! Kampmann totally man handled Shields to a controversial split decision. Now throw Shields in a Vale Tudo match like the “old timers” used to fight in, with no time limits, no weight division, and basically no rules (specially compared to how safe MMA is today) and see how Shields would do.




Who renamed it? Again, Kano renamed his style and again in Brazil it’s all just Jiu-Jitsu. Now there are obviously opportunistic people who will try to cash in. Nothing different from Marco Ruas calling his style “Ruas Vale Tudo” while it was just Luta-Livre or Machida starting calling his style Machida Karate, while it was just Shotokan with MMA strategy and off course the marketing BS that Rorion does. But this is exactly what Shields and people like Ed Bravo is doing. Totally nonsense and pointless. Besides, if you are going to “create” a new style in this day and age where creating anything with enough new to justify a rename is basically impossible, you might at least be the ultimate unbeatable badass. A guy like Anderson Silva or Fedor could at least do it without looking too foolish. But Shields? Spare me. Shields is BJJ with MMA strategy. It’s not like doubles, singles and top position priority wasn’t in BJJ already. The only excuse for renaming is cash in and ego trip.
Many top Jiu-Jitsu players have developed guards and other moves but they didn't rename their style.





Really? Humm, Maia is doing just fine. If Maia was fighting in Strikeforce he would probably hold the belt. But this is beside the point. I’m not pimping BJJ here or even here to defend it. I’m saying that renaming something that already exists is just stupid.




I’m not. You seem to be. Brazilians didn’t rename their style just to be different. Kano renamed his. But Jiu-Jitsu and Judo have more differences among them than this BS AJJ does to BJJ.



No, BJJ is not a rip of of Judo. BJJ is old Judo! That’s why it still even uses the old name Judo used to use. It did evolve in a different direction than Judo did and picked up stuff Judo didn’t have. But if the Brazilians would have renamed it they would definitely use a Portuguese name rather than keeping a name that at the time people couldn’t probably even pronounce!



.

So if I can show you that Kano's Jujitsu was Judo before Maeda went to Brazil does that invalidate your point?

Also, it is not called "Gracie" Jiu Jitsu in Brazil?

Remember BJJ did not even exist HERE for some time, it was all GJJ and then someone renamed it. Copyright infringement or some nonsense.


The art began with Mitsuyo Maeda (aka Conde Koma, or Count Coma in English), an expert Japanese judoka and member of the then-recently-founded Kodokan. Maeda was one of five of Judo's top groundwork experts that Judo's founder Kano Jigoro sent overseas to demonstrate and spread his art to the world. Maeda left Japan in 1904 and visited a number of countries[2] giving "jiu-do" demonstrations and accepting challenges from wrestlers, boxers, savate fighters and various other martial artists before eventually arriving in Brazil on November 14, 1914.[4]


So in 1882, having pulled from ancient jujitsu the best of its throws and grappling techniques, added some of his own, and removed such dangerous techniques as foot and hand strikes. Kano at the age of 22, presented his new sport--Judo. He called this sport Kodokan Judo. The term Kodokan breaks down into ko (lecture, study, method), do (way or path), and kan (hall or place). Thus it means "a place to study the way." Similarly Judo breaks down into ju (gentle) and do (way or path) or "the gentle way."

Kano established his Judo school, called the Kodokan, in the Eishoji Buddhist temple in Tokyo which grew in size and later moved. The first Kodokan had only 12 mats (12 feet by 18 feet), and nine students in the first year. Today the Kodokan has over 500 mats and more than a million visitors a year.

So Judo was Judo in 1882, Maeda went to Brazil in 1914 yet the style is JiuJitsu?

NOPE, they modified what they were taught and renamed it. Like Shields did.


I want to address your notion that JS could not fight amongst teh "old school" guys that did vale tudo. Roberto Traven, I watched these guys fight back in 96 btw..6-4 in pro mma..not bad but not what JS has done. Murillo Bustamante (who lost to Henderson but JS beat) 14-8 World champ in BJJ all the way back to 96.

Jorge Patino was a BEAST in the vale tudo tapes I saw, seriously I thought he was DA Man..back in 96 anyway. Pro MMA record? 23-13.

Renzo Gracie? 13-7

Do you get the point? JS is facing fighters as good and better than what the ole timers had to face when MMA sprung up big and he is doing FINE but many of the old time vale tudo guys barely hold a .500 record even though they are some of my favorite fighters I can say the JS is at least as good as any of them.



It’s not like doubles, singles and top position priority wasn’t in BJJ already. The only excuse for renaming is cash in and ego trip.
if it is a priority then why do SO MANY suck at it? So because Gonzago could not take down his last opponent (non wrestler btw) does that mean he has to work on his GJJ more? :)
 
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"Basically Just Judo" haha I've never heard one before. That's funny.
 
Listen BJJ or GJJ is not the only family or system or style that can tweak what they know to counter others.

Again, you cant have it both ways.

If AJJ is a rip off of BJJ and still BJJ then BJJ is a rip off of Judo and still Basically Just Judo.

GJJ created the BJJ point system/rule which is unique and makes it different from Judo.

Even American Nogi competition copied their point system and rules.

AJJ without its own competition and points system will just be another JJ faction like10th JJ or Guerilla Jiu Jitsu factions.

I think it just better just to use Arte Suave instead of JJ.
 
GJJ created the BJJ point system/rule which is unique and makes it different from Judo.

Even American Nogi competition copied their point system and rules.

AJJ without its own competition and points system will just be another JJ faction like10th JJ or Guerilla Jiu Jitsu factions.

I think it just better just to use Arte Suave instead of JJ.

Just because a system does not have a "sport of its own" does not mean it is not seperate.

1st we have to consider GJJ was GJJ well before there were tournaments right? Unless you mean to tell me the 5 or 10 guys that learned it immediately created a scoring system that was unique to them. So what was it up to that point, Judo? If so why was it not called Judo until they did the 1st tournament.

2nd styles are now evolving that can cross over into other systems. Hell even "single style" guys compete in mixed events. Mark Kerr is an example, Josh Barnett another and pretty much any wresler/Judoka or Sambo guy that enters sub grappling or BJJ events. So a separate sport is not a requirement. CACC guys dont have any if any competitions yet they are still clearly CACC guys right? Or do you mean to tell me that Barnett and Sakuraba are BJJ products?
 
Just because a system does not have a "sport of its own" does not mean it is not seperate.

1st we have to consider GJJ was GJJ well before there were tournaments right? Unless you mean to tell me the 5 or 10 guys that learned it immediately created a scoring system that was unique to them. So what was it up to that point, Judo? If so why was it not called Judo until they did the 1st tournament.

2nd styles are now evolving that can cross over into other systems. Hell even "single style" guys compete in mixed events. Mark Kerr is an example, Josh Barnett another and pretty much any wresler/Judoka or Sambo guy that enters sub grappling or BJJ events. So a separate sport is not a requirement. CACC guys dont have any if any competitions yet they are still clearly CACC guys right? Or do you mean to tell me that Barnett and Sakuraba are BJJ products?

I want AJJ to have its own sport/competition rules and point system to reflect their "philosophy". I think with their wrestling influence, they could turn into the best JJ in the world.

If LV or CACC had developped their sport via their own competition, that would have been brilliant for their art.

At the moment, the NOGI competitions are mostly just a bad rip off IBJJF rules.
 
So if I can show you that Kano's Jujitsu was Judo before Maeda went to Brazil does that invalidate your point?

Also, it is not called "Gracie" Jiu Jitsu in Brazil?

:)

Actually the Judo Federation of Brasil claims Maeda as their pionner as well.

But Sao Paulo is the "birthplace" of Brazilian Judo

GJJ in Brazil is for playboys my friend.

Seriously, they just call it JJ or Arte Suave.
 
But my grip is with the needless nonsense renaming for the sake of ego trip and cashing in.

Nobody is "renaming" anything. It was NEVER BJJ, since it's always been NoGi.

It has to be called something.

AJJ it is.

People can get over it, or throw on your pajamas and do a dojo raid, which will inevitably end poorly for you.
 
You guys get so caught up in these petty details you miss the big picture! It's just marketing. American Jiu-Jitsu, 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Gorilla Jiu-Jitsu, whatever! In Brazil, the reason they called it "jiu-jitsu" is because that was what judo was commonly called outside of Japan. It's just a way for them to honor their Japanese lineage.

I tell you, the Paulson, the Gracies, the Machados, and others really don't care what you call it, as along as you train. I.E. "grappling" vs "submission wrestling." It's all the same damn thing really. Debating about such small differences in semantics is frankly intellectual masturbation!
 
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