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ive got 6 years Dutch kickboxing and 2-3 Mma, but have only been boxing for about a year. A lot of that experience carries over, but not as much as you'd think.
Amateur matches are glorified sparring sessions :P
- Thread starter KillerIsBack V2
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one of my old trainers told me that technique is like car parts, easy to change and replace, it's the other stuff that's important. I do believe the talent pool was much deeper in boxing, that may not be the case anymore. my problem with mma was I didn't really like the grappling and the tapping out was an affront to me, was I wrong? for that particular aspect of fighting, I guess so but I don't fucking like the idea of tapping.
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most people I trained Mma with had a natural affinity for either grappling OR striking. They enjoy one more, pick up on it quicker, and then tend to struggle with the other. I was ok at wrestling but absolutely awful at jiu jitsu. For the hours I put in on the mats I should of been a blue belt instead of a 2 stripe white that regularly gets handled by newbies because they're bigger. Kickboxing on the other hand I was landing clean shots and giving competative rounds to vets after around 6 months-1 year.
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interesting, I wonder how Gracie was able t handle the guys he did. I never really liked grappling for many reasons, I've been in some real fights with guys a lot bigger than me but those guys really didn't even know what they were doing.
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If you mean Royce in Pride, then i guess cause it's soemthing nobody has ever seen. greco roman, catch, dutch kickboxing, etc those are things you could get sparring partners for easily.
Look at Johnny's Hendrix's confusion against Wonderboy's weird American Kenpo karate, Rory Brought in Daniels who's also fromt he same base that transfered to kickboxing like WB. He did alot better and went the distance.
When Anderson pulled the front/up kick to the chin, it was special, now everybody and their granny are doing it.
majority of UFC fighters today, have atleast a brownbelt in BJJ, so they'd all probably KO that version of Royce.
It's beautiful to see how the much the sport has evolved.
When u dont have anything new u just perfect existing techniques. Compare shoulder rolls of Ken Norton->James Toney->Mayweather
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Loma isn't GOAT TS. He's one of the best amateurs, not pros, but amateurs in boxing history. However, there are a small handful that have accomplished even more than he did there. There have been three triple Olympic gold medalists. He didn't go for the triple crown because it would've been a waste of his prime years to not turn pro for another 4.
Floyd isn't #TBE either but he's one of the best of all time based on his accomplishments and skill. He's one of the best technicians of any era. Many ATGs got their start from strong amateur backgrounds and many didn't. But it is a good platform to spring off of in most people's opinion mostly because of all the styles you meet along the way in international competition and on the world stage against the best each country has to offer.
You need to embrace greatness once you've recognized it. Hating isn't healthy.
I said "arguable" GOAT for a reason, a lot of analyst do interpret Loma as the amateur goat. I know all the people you've mentioned as well. I don't see why anyone would rank an olympic boxing medal "much" higher than a World ammy championship, only difference is one is less frequent.
However I do agree with u about facing, (ALOT more frequently than pro) different styles that are more predominant in other countries, but that is not enough to make up for the cons I've mentioend in the OP, not even close.
I have no clue why u're mentioning Mayweather.
I never rank anybody as GOAT, just to make things clear, personally.
I have no clue who's greatness I'm not recognizing and hating on... or why ur saying that...
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Ya, but this guy is saying he had a hard time even with newbies, that's what caught my attention. You know how the gracies (and one of my grappling teachers) said size didn't matter, I thought it was bull from the first but what do you expect a little guy to say? it's like a guy with a little dick saying that, it's a very impeachable source. I still think it's pretty impressive and yes, I know that the opponents were handpicked but still, Gracie is a tiny guy, you'd think that some of those guys could have just slung him around with no technique. He sure got the hell out of the UFC once the matches got closer though didn't he? I don't know, I really don't, I wasn't ever much of a grappler but I did damned good with it whenever I had to in real fights with guys way bigger and stronger than me. Sometimes I wish I had the money to pick up where I left off, grappling is still kind of a mystery to me but I didn't like the meatheads around it and I honestly didn't like the closeness of grappling. If some of my friends from the old days would get back in touch, i'd probably pay them to help me out. I would never take classes again, just not right for me.
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I thought you were trying to sarcastically say that Loma was already being called GOAT now as a pro. My bad. He's arguably the best amateur of all time, one of several throughout history. It depends on what accomplishments you value most and how you prioritize them all. FWIW, Zou Shiming is the most decorated amateur boxer competing as a pro today. He's a 2x Olympic gold medalist (same as Rigo & Loma), Olympic bronze medalist, 3x amateur World Champion and silver medalist. He stuck around too long in the amateurs, unfortunately.
Here's a question for you. If the amateurs mean next to diddly then why does Bob Arum keep signing these Olympic medalists, in particular double Olympic gold medalists (originally Rigo, along with Loma and Shiming)? If it was just for marketability then why were these guys also fast tracked accordingly? The pros and amateurs do have some major differences. It goes beyond that though. It's about not just performing but shining at the highest level under the highest of pressure, perceived ability and again exposure to all kinds of styles as you know (a whole lot of Salido's in-fighting isn't even legal and that's as an ammy or pro). Loma and Shiming were fast tracked too quickly but that's actually Loma's fault, his team's, because they demanded it from Arum to fight for a world title immediately. Rigo was brought along more slowly in comparison, even though his style was very suitable for the pros as an amateur.
Boxers have their Olympiad cycle that's 4 years long. Originally, for the first couple World Championships, they were held every 4 years as well but decreased to 3 and then every 2 years. The whole time these boxers are preparing for not just the WC's but the next Games, which are massive ceremonial events. The amateur boxing World Championships didn't even exist prior to 1974. While, on the other hand, boxing at the Olympics has existed since 1904. That's a 70 year historical difference between them. Technically, the ancient Olympic Games had boxing hundreds of years before Christ. Back then they had boxing, wrestling and pankration as their combat sport Olympic events that athletes could compete in.
Being able to call yourself an amateur boxing "world champion" is a big deal and is recognized going into the Olympics but being able to call yourself an "Olympic champion" (or Olympic gold medalist, both are used) is definitely more significant. The World Championships are major competitions on the way to the Olympics. Both are the most important major competitions in an amateur boxer's career on the world stage but the Olympics have and always will be the ultimate goal. Every athlete's dream is to win gold if their sport is in the Olympics.
Floyd was an Olympic medalist with a good amateur pedigree, a highly touted one from America (where I live btw). He's widely considered the best of this era and one of the best of all time as a professional. Ali, "The Greatest", was also an Olympic medalist (gold). Sugar Ray Robinson, widely considered the best pro boxer of all time P4P, was 85-2 as an amateur. He was a Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves tournament champ (not national Golden Gloves though). There are plenty of pros that were decorated amateurs and standouts that were busts, particularly if their amateur style wasn't fit (or fit well enough) for the pros or they couldn't adapt it to the pros. The great Laszlo Papp, the first ever triple Olympic gold medalist (ammy record 301-12-6), also had a style suited well for the pros. He ended up finding a way to turn pro (wasn't allowed to in his homeland of Hungary due to communist rule) and retired undefeated with a record of 27-0-2 despite his hand problems before even turning pro. He was the European Middleweight champion as a pro.
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I'm about your build and compete at 152. I've been thinking of dropping to 141 tho. I just think that I would have a good reach advantage at 141 being 5'10. I feel very physically strong at my weight and I'm not worried about being muscled around. I feel most comfortable at mid range I'd say. The problem is my coach tells me guys at 141 are really fast. Now being in my 20's and pretty lean I wouldn't say I'm slow but I know theres guys faster than me. I guess my main concern is will I see their punches and can I hit a target that nimble? Any advice
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i think the speed difference between 152 and 141 is negligible. If you can make 141 through a change in your diet and exercise regime then it's worth it. I'm pretty bias because I'm not a big dude, but the power difference between the 152 and 141 is noticeable, but speed not so much.
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The power and speed thing is a weird one to me, because while maybe on “average” guys are quicker at a certain weight, I know some guys I’ve boxed who weigh 175 and are 100% faster than most 122lbers in the world, and I’ve boxed 130lbers who hit much harder than some of the 160-170 lb guys.
I feel like the biggest difference would be in physical strength on the inside and presence, the power and speed side of things I feel like is more a roll of the dice. A puncher will knock u out in any weight class and a feather fisted guy won’t hurt a fly regardless of weight too from what it seems
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"Trophies do nothing but collect dust" Floyd mayweather Jr.
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It's a different sport! That has nothing to do with prize fighting and professional boxing. Amateur boxers are amateurs. You don't want to fly a plane that has been repaired by amateur mechanic, do you?
Notable fighers who didn't have succesful amateur background, and are considered best fighters:
James L. Sullivan
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Do not ever, I mean never, compare professional to an amateur!
Notable fighers who didn't have succesful amateur background, and are considered best fighters:
James L. Sullivan
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Do not ever, I mean never, compare professional to an amateur!
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Amateur boxing is only "amateur" by name.
Boxing is the only sport where you can win the olympic gold medal in 20 times, world championship 20 times, be undefeated and 60 years old, and still be called an amateur... Not to mention being paired against a guy who just graduated high school a week before the fight.
Winning Olympic gold in any other sport, you are considered the best in the world.
You missed the point of the thread, because I have no idea why you're giving the 3 examples you did... I gave examples of guys who had little to no ammy experience and became really successful. btw, there's much better examples than guys who fought a century ago. There's guys who had great amateur career and sucked as pro too. Irrelevant to the topic.
All I'm saying is that there's no need to waste most your life in the ammies then turn pro.
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Since you put it that way. You are right.
Just to make sure you are right, there are few mentions, if you are really awesome at ameteurs you can be considered best towards professionals too.
Teofilo Stevenson was considered best, there were a lot of discussion who win in a match against Ali. That might be surprising for Ali fans, but he's being the best was really being questioned by an amateur.
I think Felix Savon had similar reputation.
Ofcourse this thread is about them beating up kids, but they were still considered as one of the greatest boxers. Too bad they are rarely seen in All time greatest HW or boxers list, I claim simply politics about this.
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That you should blame communism, nothing else.
Defecting from cuba to turn pro was much harder than today, and even today it's crazy hard with consequences.
Just sayin, I'm not comparing skillset, but on paper, Lomachenko's record was near perfect compared to those 2 you mentioned. only 2 losses and avenged twice amongst hundreds of wins. those guys you mentioned lost a dozen times. Though all 3 have an argument for ammy goat.
If you wanna argue loma's first loss was not because of lack of pro experience, sure I'll agree with that, ref was kind of blind. But for the sake of argument, I'll take a cuban for example: Robeisy Ramírez is the msot recent cuban god to transfer since Rigo, he lost his first fight to a can, "didn't take him seriously" is a bunch of sorry gay excuse, he lost to a complete can with very few fights in his pro debut.
Nobody should ever stay too long in the amateurs, it can only have negative side effects. anything over a 100 fights is stupid, and anybody continuing an ammy "caeer"(if you wanna call it that) past the age of 19 is wasting their time. Building yourself as a pro and developing your transitioned style early is much more effective. Or maybe doing a little bit of World Series for the extra cash since you earn close to nothign starting as a pro(though I hate that... big maybe on my end)
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I agree on that, but I would go that even further that the whole ameteur career is waste of talent. Go Pro as early as it is possible, like Canelo.
There's no valid reason to waste time on different sport. Some do it for get experience/self confidence or marketibility for pro career. But if you are really talented you should start focusing on professional career early on. Some fighters do that and do amateurs on side. But that's just distracting, focus on pros early on, get yourself good managers who make sure good matchmaking. There are too many politics and fishy situations in amateurs that I even think as dirty some say professional boxing is, it's different but we could argue which one is dirtier.
So focus on 12 round fights, forget tournaments, make sure about matchmaking and prepare for selected opponent, forget amateur scoring system. Stop wasting your time with amateurs.
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Now you're speaking my language.
If only everyone else sees the light soon.
