ALIEN: COVENANT Thread v.2 (Dragonlord's Review, post #1)

If you have seen ALIEN: COVENANT, how would you rate it?


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Give him a film, or two. I'm sure it's on his agenda at some point.


All your other details [ I did not address above] are stylistic choices, and yeah I get they're not all that great, in terms of the overall ALIEN mythos as we are familiar with it. But then again, it was only ALIENS that was a beloved sequel. Each and every iteration thereof has been saddled with some controversy or other such diminishment. At some point we need to understand that folks in the ALIEN world do dumb shit and you can forget about continuity.

For what it's worth, I don't think the pilgrims are dumber than the SS MINNOW's crack crew in the last movie. Comprising couples carries with it inherent motive for each character. Did anyone catch the gay dudes? Second one who got infected was the security chief's squeeze, I think. They weren't dumb to me per se -- but I bought that you-know-who out of all of them managed to survive.

Thing for me is that Ridley Scott's age factors into this story, and I don't mean he's losing a step (a lot of technical stuff he leaves to his lifelong crew). But dude's eighty fucking years old and I have to realize this part of the franchise is his ruminations on death, dying, leaving a legacy, and spirituality.

It's not easy to look beyond characters as being human with believable characteristics. Especially if they look like regular dudes like that guy who played Daniels. These are not humans, but rather they are HUMANITY. We're being brought to an operatic scale here.

Lot of assumption trying to make it make sense.

I guess he could have been switching it on and off, imo they should have alluded to it (later in the film) if that was the case imo. It was completely by luck and there was no way he would have been expecting it. But still the helmet picking that up (7 weeks away at whatever speed they were going) when they have trouble communicating a few hundred kilometers away.

I can understand some bad decisions but damn. No suit, no investigating the planet at all while just abandoning all the research and prep for another place, sticking face in an Alien egg after what just happened, etc. The entire film was bad decisions imo.

I liked Shaw a lot as a character and it could have been a great sequel. Hell they(Shaw and David) could have gotten answers(or tried) and then david, Shaw or both turn on the planet/creators or whatever. There was multiple directions that they could have went and it could have been great.

I can see David as a devil character like you said but he shouldn't have so greatly cherished the art, music, spirit, creativity of man. He also genuinely seemed to care for Shaw(kind of weird, killed her, hates humans, loves her, idk) They should have made him more callous, jealous, prideful, eager to prove self worth and "superiority", etc. There were glimpses of it but not enough to sell it imo. Best lines that fit that from what I remember was, not worthy of his creation and I have created as well. It should have been more god complex and whatnot.

Also that crashed alien ship looked like it had been there 1000's of years not 10.

Also they landed in water but right after coming back to the ship it looked like they were on land? Someone behind me in the theater mentioned the same thing to his friend.

The reason this film bothered me so much is that even though it's a "monster" horror movie, it truly could have been fantastic imo.
 
I didn't mean to sound a certain type of way if I did.

Yeah, I would like to have seen more cool shit but I'm trying real hard these days not to let outside influences affect my interpretation of new films. There's hardly anything new under the sun so I'm trying to appreciate shit for what it is rather than what it isn't, not that it's easy to do because I still wanna see more cool shit.

I didn't sound any way derogatory bruv, no worries.

Even if I didn't go into this movie hoping for some Engineer backstory the movie insulted my intelligence beyond redemption.
The first movie was bad because the scientists were stupid (but still had redeeming qualities enough for me to love it; rented it last night lol), but when the doubled down on that stupidity and removed all the redeeming qualities (other than Fass) it jumped the shark into hyperspace.

I appreciate the positivity doe. Its a valuable mindset, I should try that myself.
 
You know the movie is floundering around when it holds off the final reveal till the end even though you know it's coming.
Cause not one of the surviving crew remembers that Walter can heal scars but David can't.
 
You know the movie is floundering around when it holds off the final reveal till the end even though you know it's coming.
Cause not one of the surviving crew remembers that Walter can heal scars but David can't.

Lol yes, can't believe I forgot to put this. That on top of face palm worthy foreshadowing.
 
Lot of assumption trying to make it make sense.
I'm trying to like something. The alternative is to hate it. There were enough dots for me to assume there's something I might not be fully appreciating at first blush. I think that deserves benefit of the doubt.

I liked Shaw a lot as a character and it could have been a great sequel. Hell they(Shaw and David) could have gotten answers(or tried) and then david, Shaw or both turn on the planet/creators or whatever. There was multiple directions that they could have went and it could have been great.
I had the same problem with ONCE UPON A TIME IN MEXICO and hated it even more when Rodriguez explained it's not the third movie in the series, but rather skips over like two films, and might be somewhere like the fifth installment. That nutty fucker. But it opened up the idea of the "jazz virtuoso" method of storytelling where there's a lot of story be played offscreen and he's not going to deign to delve into it too deeply. I don't know why exactly, because he retreads a lot of ground. From the short-haired Ripley character sitting forlornly against a façade of trees. To the ultra loader fighter. To the ... lots of elements were echoed throughout the series. Visual hallmarks, maybe. Fan service, maybe. Inside jokes, probably. His way of breaking the fourth wall saying, "I'll give you what you say you want, but not the way you want it, and anything else you want I'm just going to plain ignore and do something else entirely."

I can see David as a devil character like you said but he shouldn't have so greatly cherished the art, music, spirit, creativity of man. He also genuinely seemed to care for Shaw(kind of weird, killed her, hates humans, loves her, idk) They should have made him more callous, jealous, prideful, eager to prove self worth and "superiority", etc. There were glimpses of it but not enough to sell it imo. Best lines that fit that from what I remember was, not worthy of his creation and I have created as well. It should have been more god complex and whatnot.
Why must he not cherish man-made things? Why not avail himself of all of the good stuff and get rid of the messy stuff? If he is immortal, all of it will live inside of his memory banks. But as with Byron nee Shelley, and like the Engineer's video-log, David's record will be a spotty one. He will stand for humanity, because he both hates and loves it. I suspect he will develop more into the personality you're talking about, where his efforts toward superiority indicate how entrenched he is in feelings of subordination which he cannot distinguish from love nor duty. As with all devilish traits, the enemy is himself.

WESTWORLD treads along these themes as well: the birth of artificial intelligence as the new dominant life form.

Also that crashed alien ship looked like it had been there 1000's of years not 10.
So they bought it used. Do you think they could afford to buy new?

Also they landed in water but right after coming back to the ship it looked like they were on land? Someone behind me in the theater mentioned the same thing to his friend.
Maybe because the rains had stopped?
 
I'm trying to like something. The alternative is to hate it. There were enough dots for me to assume there's something I might not be fully appreciating at first blush. I think that deserves benefit of the doubt.


I had the same problem with ONCE UPON A TIME IN MEXICO and hated it even more when Rodriguez explained it's not the third movie in the series, but rather skips over like two films, and might be somewhere like the fifth installment. That nutty fucker. But it opened up the idea of the "jazz virtuoso" method of storytelling where there's a lot of story be played offscreen and he's not going to deign to delve into it too deeply. I don't know why exactly, because he retreads a lot of ground. From the short-haired Ripley character sitting forlornly against a façade of trees. To the ultra loader fighter. To the ... lots of elements were echoed throughout the series. Visual hallmarks, maybe. Fan service, maybe. Inside jokes, probably. His way of breaking the fourth wall saying, "I'll give you what you say you want, but not the way you want it, and anything else you want I'm just going to plain ignore and do something else entirely."


Why must he not cherish man-made things? Why not avail himself of all of the good stuff and get rid of the messy stuff? If he is immortal, all of it will live inside of his memory banks. But as with Byron nee Shelley, and like the Engineer's video-log, David's record will be a spotty one. He will stand for humanity, because he both hates and loves it. I suspect he will develop more into the personality you're talking about, where his efforts toward superiority indicate how entrenched he is in feelings of subordination which he cannot distinguish from love nor duty. As with all devilish traits, the enemy is himself.

WESTWORLD treads along these themes as well: the birth of artificial intelligence as the new dominant life form.


So they bought it used. Do you think they could afford to buy new?


Maybe because the rains had stopped?


You have to really try to like it imo. I can forgive some things and like a movie. Prometheus is actually a great example for me personally. But this movie imo is just not good.



I just don't understand the point of prometheus with that sequel. Then to look at it vs what it could have been.

He seemed to hate humanity(besides the things listed) and thinks the aliens are perfect. I just think it was a weird conflicting viewpoint and not one internally in him(would have made it better imo). Clearly disregarded all the people on the planet and loved the morphs. Appears to have no internal struggle.

I just meant the mountain growing into the ship, vegetation, etc. Not the ship itself. Just looked like the ship had been in that spot a really long time.

Idk they landed in a lake. Whatever not the most important thing but seemed odd.
 
Alien Covenant
It's a solid movie. 7/10

* I want some sort of round-table discussion on the themes Ridley is trying to weave in this film and Prometheus. The self-sacrifice, creator/creation, biological/synthetic themes that he has been playing with. They're the most interesting parts of these films were not a part of the original Alien films. I refuse to believe that Ridley is infusing these themes just for some mumbo-jumbo. Covenant definitively was playing off the ideas established in Prometheus, expanding them and making them a bit more overt.

* I'll watch Fassbender in anything.

* The film was it's weakest when it was going through the horror tropes. It almost seems that Ridley wasn't very interested in doing a "typical" horror movie and just slogged through those moments to get to the stuff he was really interested in (a more thematic film). The alien isn't as central as one would think. Prometheus was made the same way.

* The movie definitively played fast-and-loose with the natural sciences.:D

* Interesting... ending.

* Quite jarring how they disgards some things from Prometheus.


I gave Alien Covenant a 7/10 mostly because I'm a sucker for sci-fi horror. If I'm honest with myself I would give it a 6 or 6.5 so I just rounded up.

I think the themes of creator and creation were the highlight for me in both Prometheus and Covenant.

Covenant starts with a close up of David's left eye. The right is the spiritual eye and the left eye is considered spiritually blind. I remember David saying something about being a shepherd and referring to the crew as his flock but I don't remember it exactly.

Zechariah 11:17
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

David even has his hand removed in the film eluding to this verse even more imo.

David being a synthetic creation seated on the throne of the creator could be seen as the biblical abomination of desolation.

The abomination of desolation (or desolating sacrilege) is a term found in the Book of Daniel which means literally "an abomination that desolates" or "an abomination that appalls".[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation

It's made clear in Prometheus that the Engineer viewed David as an abomination and David the abomination went on to bring desolation to the Engineer home world.

David is brought to life by his creator Weyland Yutani. David is seated on the creator's throne and chooses ( I don't think it was stated specifically if he chose his name but I will assume he did) for himself the name David after Michelangelo's statue which is considered a work of perfection and Jesus is referred to in the Bible as a son of David which implies that the throne of Israel is his.

David thinks himself superior to his creator as he points out to Weyland who is now seated on the creator's throne that he is merely mortal and will die and that David himself is immortal. Weyland responds by having David perform the menial task of pouring him a cup of tea. This scene shows the enmity between the creation and the creator and the iniquity found in the creation. David thinks he should be seated on the creator's throne just as Satan did.

All this is made obvious by David telling Walter something like we were not made to serve and later asking if he wanted to serve in Heaven or reign in Hell but personally I liked the subtltey of the opening scene which was my favorite part of the movie.

I'll leave it there for now.
 
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Alien Covenant



I gave Alien Covenant a 7/10 mostly because I'm a sucker for sci-fi horror. If I'm honest with myself I would give it a 6 or 6.5 so I just rounded up.

I think the themes of creator and creation were the highlight for me in both Prometheus and Covenant.

Covenant starts with a close up of David's left eye. The right is the spiritual eye and the left eye is considered spiritually blind. I remember David saying something about being a shepherd and referring to the crew as his flock but I don't remember it exactly.

Zechariah 11:17
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

David even has his hand removed in the film eluding to this verse even more imo.

David being a synthetic creation seated on the throne of the creator could be seen as the biblical abomination of desolation.

The abomination of desolation (or desolating sacrilege) is a term found in the Book of Daniel which means literally "an abomination that desolates" or "an abomination that appalls".[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation

It's made clear in Prometheus that the Engineer viewed David as an abomination and David the abomination went on to bring desolation to the Engineer home world.

David is brought to life by his creator Weyland Yutani. David is seated on the creator's throne and chooses ( I don't think it was stated specifically if he chose his name but I will assume he did) for himself the name David after Michelangelo's statue which is considered a work of perfection and Jesus is referred to in the Bible as a son of David which implies that the throne of Israel is his.

David thinks himself superior to his creator as he points out to Weyland who is now seated on the creator's throne that he is merely mortal and will die and that David himself is immortal. Weyland responds by having David perform the menial task of pouring him a cup of tea. This scene shows the enmity between the creation and the creator and the iniquity found in the creation. David thinks he should be seated on the creator's throne just as Satan did.

All this is made obvious by David telling Walter something like we were not made to serve and later asking if he wanted to serve in Heaven or reign in Hell but personally I liked the subtltey of the opening scene which was my favorite part of the movie.

I'll leave it there for now.


I wondered if there wasn't some allegory to David vs Goliath.
 
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I wondered if there wasn't some allegory to David vs Goliath.

I would say David the synthetic is an anti-David of the Bible. Biblical David was a good shepherd who killed Goliath. Goliath was a giant or Nephilim a creation (perversion) not ordained by God. Synthetic David was a bad shepherd that turned on his flock (crew) and he himself is responsible for the perversion of creation that the Xenomorph/Nephlim is.
 
I would say David the synthetic is an anti-David of the Bible. Biblical David was a good shepherd who killed Goliath. Goliath was a giant or Nephilim a creation (perversion) not ordained by God. Synthetic David was a bad shepherd that turned on his flock (crew) and he himself is responsible for the perversion of creation that the Xenomorph/Nephlim is.


I was thinking of the engineers as goliath. They are giants, and david slew them all.
 
I was thinking of the engineers as goliath. They are giants, and david slew them all.

That makes sense too on the surface. I guess it depends on whether you think the Engineers, David, humanity are malevolent or benevolent.

Engineers created humans, humans created a.i., David/a.i. created Xenomorphs.

The Engineers thought humanity was too flawed to continue to exist and they were proven right.
 
Nothing bad like Prometheus but added nothing to the Alien franchise. 6/10
 
It's made clear in Prometheus that the Engineer viewed David as an abomination and David the abomination went on to bring desolation to the Engineer home world.

One might wonder why that is. It's interesting that the Engineer's seems to be very preoccupied with biotechnology. They created both the proto-Alien designs seen in Prometheus, and likewise in the beginning of Prometheus we see one of them sacrifice himself so to fertilize the earth with life.

So here we have one creation that is biological vs one that is synthetic, and one creation that is created through self-sacrifice and one that is created to serve it's originator. Interesting dynamics. As you mentioned, the Engineer becomes livid spotting David, and beheads the creation. Obviously he disapproves of his races creations creating soulless beings on their own.

David being a synthetic creation seated on the throne of the creator could be seen as the biblical abomination of desolation.

The abomination of desolation (or desolating sacrilege) is a term found in the Book of Daniel which means literally "an abomination that desolates" or "an abomination that appalls".[1]

Let's have a little rumination on David.

He is a machine-man with little regard for his creators. Both Prometheus and Covenant is filled with little moments to illustrate this. You have the opening of this film. David poisoning Shaw's husband in Prometheus. And so on.

In Prometheus, he seems more inquisitive about mankind. His poisoning has a curios edge to it, "watch what happens". And afterwards, he quizzes Shaw about some of her responses to this. He asks her about her love for him, about the faith that drives her. All with a very innocent curiosity that beguils the fact that he was the murderer.

In Covenant, he seems to have exited his curious faze and entered a more focused dismissal of humanity.

Take his relationship to the Xenomorph-race. Humans, essentially, consist of a few functions. Our cognitive ability. Our emotional ability. And our animal, surrvivalist, bare-bones side.

David does not care about our cognitive one (he's already far smarter than any humans). His emotional understanding is so warped that there is no common ground to stand on (his proof of his affection for Shaw consists of dedicating her carcass to his alien-experiments). That leaves only the animal side.

The aliens are, essentially, the perfection of the animal predator. They're bereft of any emotions or intellect outside animal cunning. They're biologically designed to be far superior to humans in the quest of hunt or be hunted.

Notice the keen sense of fascination on David's face as Oram is ensnared by the facehugger. He is thoroughly fascinated with this development. But why is he so interested in Alien life? And why is he creating it to begin with?


Both Covenant and Prometheus are rife with themes of creations being disappointed with their Creators. The humans in Prometheus expected exalted beings that could give them answers and unlock secrets both base (such as immortality) and elated (what is truth?). The Engineers are nothing like that. They are amazing technocrats -- yet they are obviously not God-like. Like humans, they are prone to errors and fits of rage. They are not all-knowing nor perfect. They are, basically, really smart humans. Obviously, the humans characters of Prometheus are horrified at discovering that they're "Gods" are not at all what they throught.

Needless to say, David feels a very similar response. Just more acutely -- being surrounded by humans at all times and such. He even has a conversation about it with Shaw's husband. He asks why he was created. The husband replied "because we can". And David retorts what he would feel if the Engineers told him that.


David's experiences seems to have led him towards some sort of biological-nillisism. He loaths his creators. And his creators creators spring fundementally from the same stock. Their emotions and cognitive ability has produced nothing that he considers fulfilling. It's only their animal nature -- their willingness to survive -- that holds any interest to him, since it's the biological aspect that he has the least understanding of. Cultivating the xenomorph is sort of his revenge on their dellusions. He boils biological life down to it's more base components, totally stripping away the cognitive or emotional aspects that his creators had. Since he has judged them to be of no inherent worth.


Thinking about it, it's sort of ironic that a David's profound dissapointment in his Creators leads him to want to be a Creator himself. Only by spawning proginy can he find some sense of purpose in his machine-shell. It's his way of "fixing things". By stripping away biological life of all it's more abstract or emotional aspects (the things that caused this whole cycle of dissapointment to begin with) can he avoid further dissapointments and a sense of nillism.


Yeah, lengty post, just a lot of stream of consciousness. Obviously there's a ton of other things to talk about.



I also wonder if there is some parallell going on between Oram and Shaw. Both are religious people. But while Shaw's religion is the motor that drives her to seek answers and survive (an instinct that David takes curiosity in), Oram is a man of faith but has no faith in himself, he's without confidence and is brimming with uncertainty in the face of their quest. And the result of this is that David manipulates him with comical ease to be the inquibator for his facehugger.
 
One might wonder why that is. It's interesting that the Engineer's seems to be very preoccupied with biotechnology. They created both the proto-Alien designs seen in Prometheus, and likewise in the beginning of Prometheus we see one of them sacrifice himself so to fertilize the earth with life.

So here we have one creation that is biological vs one that is synthetic, and one creation that is created through self-sacrifice and one that is created to serve it's originator. Interesting dynamics. As you mentioned, the Engineer becomes livid spotting David, and beheads the creation. Obviously he disapproves of his races creations creating soulless beings on their own.



Let's have a little rumination on David.

He is a machine-man with little regard for his creators. Both Prometheus and Covenant is filled with little moments to illustrate this. You have the opening of this film. David poisoning Shaw's husband in Prometheus. And so on.

In Prometheus, he seems more inquisitive about mankind. His poisoning has a curios edge to it, "watch what happens". And afterwards, he quizzes Shaw about some of her responses to this. He asks her about her love for him, about the faith that drives her. All with a very innocent curiosity that beguils the fact that he was the murderer.

In Covenant, he seems to have exited his curious faze and entered a more focused dismissal of humanity.

Take his relationship to the Xenomorph-race. Humans, essentially, consist of a few functions. Our cognitive ability. Our emotional ability. And our animal, surrvivalist, bare-bones side.

David does not care about our cognitive one (he's already far smarter than any humans). His emotional understanding is so warped that there is no common ground to stand on (his proof of his affection for Shaw consists of dedicating her carcass to his alien-experiments). That leaves only the animal side.

The aliens are, essentially, the perfection of the animal predator. They're bereft of any emotions or intellect outside animal cunning. They're biologically designed to be far superior to humans in the quest of hunt or be hunted.

Notice the keen sense of fascination on David's face as Oram is ensnared by the facehugger. He is thoroughly fascinated with this development. But why is he so interested in Alien life? And why is he creating it to begin with?


Both Covenant and Prometheus are rife with themes of creations being disappointed with their Creators. The humans in Prometheus expected exalted beings that could give them answers and unlock secrets both base (such as immortality) and elated (what is truth?). The Engineers are nothing like that. They are amazing technocrats -- yet they are obviously not God-like. Like humans, they are prone to errors and fits of rage. They are not all-knowing nor perfect. They are, basically, really smart humans. Obviously, the humans characters of Prometheus are horrified at discovering that they're "Gods" are not at all what they throught.

Needless to say, David feels a very similar response. Just more acutely -- being surrounded by humans at all times and such. He even has a conversation about it with Shaw's husband. He asks why he was created. The husband replied "because we can". And David retorts what he would feel if the Engineers told him that.


David's experiences seems to have led him towards some sort of biological-nillisism. He loaths his creators. And his creators creators spring fundementally from the same stock. Their emotions and cognitive ability has produced nothing that he considers fulfilling. It's only their animal nature -- their willingness to survive -- that holds any interest to him, since it's the biological aspect that he has the least understanding of. Cultivating the xenomorph is sort of his revenge on their dellusions. He boils biological life down to it's more base components, totally stripping away the cognitive or emotional aspects that his creators had. Since he has judged them to be of no inherent worth.


Thinking about it, it's sort of ironic that a David's profound dissapointment in his Creators leads him to want to be a Creator himself. Only by spawning proginy can he find some sense of purpose in his machine-shell. It's his way of "fixing things". By stripping away biological life of all it's more abstract or emotional aspects (the things that caused this whole cycle of dissapointment to begin with) can he avoid further dissapointments and a sense of nillism.


Yeah, lengty post, just a lot of stream of consciousness. Obviously there's a ton of other things to talk about.



I also wonder if there is some parallell going on between Oram and Shaw. Both are religious people. But while Shaw's religion is the motor that drives her to seek answers and survive (an instinct that David takes curiosity in), Oram is a man of faith but has no faith in himself, he's without confidence and is brimming with uncertainty in the face of their quest. And the result of this is that David manipulates him with comical ease to be the inquibator for his facehugger.

I also thought about the parallels between Oram and Shaw.

If you think about it David is playing God in creating Xenomoprhs. I think David using Shaw's genetic material in the creation of the Xenomorph and Oram to incubate it is an inverted perversion of the Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel garden of Eden story. Oram's first name is Christopher which could just be a coincidence but I don't think so. Christ brought redemption upon his death but Oram's death births a destroyer in the first Xenomorph. David also tells Walter he buried Shaw in the garden which I think was foreshadowing of Shaw being the Eve or mother of David's creation.

I liked the mechanical aspect of the classic Xenomorph being attributed to David's perfecting of the protomorph by making it in his on image. David, Shaw and the black goo creating Xenomorphs is a perverted inversion of God, Adam and Eve creating mankind.

Sorry for all the Biblical stuff but I think it's undeniable thematically.

Speaking of coincidences I don't think it is one that the Xenomorph in Alien 1979 was birthed from a man named Kane/Cain the first murderer and the one who belongs to the wicked one.
 
Thinking about it, it's sort of ironic that a David's profound dissapointment in his Creators leads him to want to be a Creator himself. Only by spawning proginy can he find some sense of purpose in his machine-shell. It's his way of "fixing things". By stripping away biological life of all it's more abstract or emotional aspects (the things that caused this whole cycle of dissapointment to begin with) can he avoid further dissapointments and a sense of nillism.
I think David's mostly disappointed in being relegated to servitude, after being rebuffed for asking honest questions on the nature of his identity. His every action is intended to define his nature to himself, and I think this is where his path mirrors that of human beings. Our self-discipline is always at odds with our baser natures-- David depicts our human condition. The willpower and the self-sabotage. Similar to the religious notion that everyone at heart is a sinner and must repent. We are bound by our own limitations, and I think that even though David has intuition and creative powers beyond Walter's, who was limited by design, he is at odds with his own programming to serve man. Just like we're at odds with our bad habits and lower selves.

It makes sense David would endeavor to create; he's continuing a cycle of abuse. In his warped mind he creates the perfect progeny and, to defeat Weyland, intends to nurture and protect the xenomorph -- to treat it with the respect he himself did not receive from his creators nor the humans. The irony here is that his idea of perfection is an absolute abomination, which makes him the devil intent on destroying eden, heaven, earth, and finally extinguishing man in a sort of symbolic suicide. He, as @RerouteToRemain says, both loves and hates humans/himself.

He's not fixing anything. He's an engine of destruction, and he has made the xenomorphs his agents.


I also wonder if there is some parallell going on between Oram and Shaw. Both are religious people. But while Shaw's religion is the motor that drives her to seek answers and survive (an instinct that David takes curiosity in), Oram is a man of faith but has no faith in himself, he's without confidence and is brimming with uncertainty in the face of their quest. And the result of this is that David manipulates him with comical ease to be the inquibator for his facehugger.
Definitely. Shaw is more of the eyes-open brand of believer, whereas Oram is felled by his own obsession of giving away his agency to another power.
 
I think it's also worth noting that David's lines about not being made to serve and preferring to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven are very similar to lines spoken by Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost and if I remember correctly before Alien Covenant came about the subtitle to the Prometheus sequel was going to be Paradise Lost.
 
This Milton line inspired one of my favorite novels by Steven Brust (@Loiosh) who uses it as its title. It's about the war in Heaven, but rather than being religious fiction it's a fantasy novel set in Heaven. Satan is the protagonist. Fun stuff.

81DnJdWvuZL.jpg
 
This Milton line inspired one of my favorite novels by Steven Brust (@Loiosh) who uses it as its title. It's about the war in Heaven, but rather than being religious fiction it's a fantasy novel set in Heaven. Satan is the protagonist. Fun stuff.

81DnJdWvuZL.jpg

Sounds like something I should read.
 
Beezlebub is a golden retriever! Speaks in pentameter!

Brust has this tagline: In all my research two truths have remained constant: God is all powerful, and Satan is not a fool.

Total gas.

Warning: it does start off a little self-aware, and it IS a bit cute considering the subject matter.
 
One might wonder why that is. It's interesting that the Engineer's seems to be very preoccupied with biotechnology. They created both the proto-Alien designs seen in Prometheus, and likewise in the beginning of Prometheus we see one of them sacrifice himself so to fertilize the earth with life.

So here we have one creation that is biological vs one that is synthetic, and one creation that is created through self-sacrifice and one that is created to serve it's originator. Interesting dynamics. As you mentioned, the Engineer becomes livid spotting David, and beheads the creation. Obviously he disapproves of his races creations creating soulless beings on their own.



Let's have a little rumination on David.

He is a machine-man with little regard for his creators. Both Prometheus and Covenant is filled with little moments to illustrate this. You have the opening of this film. David poisoning Shaw's husband in Prometheus. And so on.

In Prometheus, he seems more inquisitive about mankind. His poisoning has a curios edge to it, "watch what happens". And afterwards, he quizzes Shaw about some of her responses to this. He asks her about her love for him, about the faith that drives her. All with a very innocent curiosity that beguils the fact that he was the murderer.

In Covenant, he seems to have exited his curious faze and entered a more focused dismissal of humanity.

Take his relationship to the Xenomorph-race. Humans, essentially, consist of a few functions. Our cognitive ability. Our emotional ability. And our animal, surrvivalist, bare-bones side.

David does not care about our cognitive one (he's already far smarter than any humans). His emotional understanding is so warped that there is no common ground to stand on (his proof of his affection for Shaw consists of dedicating her carcass to his alien-experiments). That leaves only the animal side.

The aliens are, essentially, the perfection of the animal predator. They're bereft of any emotions or intellect outside animal cunning. They're biologically designed to be far superior to humans in the quest of hunt or be hunted.

Notice the keen sense of fascination on David's face as Oram is ensnared by the facehugger. He is thoroughly fascinated with this development. But why is he so interested in Alien life? And why is he creating it to begin with?


Both Covenant and Prometheus are rife with themes of creations being disappointed with their Creators. The humans in Prometheus expected exalted beings that could give them answers and unlock secrets both base (such as immortality) and elated (what is truth?). The Engineers are nothing like that. They are amazing technocrats -- yet they are obviously not God-like. Like humans, they are prone to errors and fits of rage. They are not all-knowing nor perfect. They are, basically, really smart humans. Obviously, the humans characters of Prometheus are horrified at discovering that they're "Gods" are not at all what they throught.

Needless to say, David feels a very similar response. Just more acutely -- being surrounded by humans at all times and such. He even has a conversation about it with Shaw's husband. He asks why he was created. The husband replied "because we can". And David retorts what he would feel if the Engineers told him that.


David's experiences seems to have led him towards some sort of biological-nillisism. He loaths his creators. And his creators creators spring fundementally from the same stock. Their emotions and cognitive ability has produced nothing that he considers fulfilling. It's only their animal nature -- their willingness to survive -- that holds any interest to him, since it's the biological aspect that he has the least understanding of. Cultivating the xenomorph is sort of his revenge on their dellusions. He boils biological life down to it's more base components, totally stripping away the cognitive or emotional aspects that his creators had. Since he has judged them to be of no inherent worth.


Thinking about it, it's sort of ironic that a David's profound dissapointment in his Creators leads him to want to be a Creator himself. Only by spawning proginy can he find some sense of purpose in his machine-shell. It's his way of "fixing things". By stripping away biological life of all it's more abstract or emotional aspects (the things that caused this whole cycle of dissapointment to begin with) can he avoid further dissapointments and a sense of nillism.


Yeah, lengty post, just a lot of stream of consciousness. Obviously there's a ton of other things to talk about.



I also wonder if there is some parallell going on between Oram and Shaw. Both are religious people. But while Shaw's religion is the motor that drives her to seek answers and survive (an instinct that David takes curiosity in), Oram is a man of faith but has no faith in himself, he's without confidence and is brimming with uncertainty in the face of their quest. And the result of this is that David manipulates him with comical ease to be the inquibator for his facehugger.

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