Ali Vs Frazier

[Someone88]

Excuses. Ali can play the "if" game too. If Ali wasn't exiled for boxing for 3.5 years Frazier doesn't touch him and probably gets stopped. If Ali had more tune-up fights and therefore better conditioning and less ring rust he wins the first fight.

There is a consensus now that Ali took the Frazier fight too early, but he didn't have a choice because the Supreme Court could have delivered their decision on his court case at any point, so he risked going to jail for draft dodging before cashing out on the Frazier fight. So, "if" he only had more tune-up fights.

This is an urban legend. Mark Kram (having an anti-Ali agenda) twisted a throwaway comment Ali made and printed that as a fact.

Ali said a lot of shit just to be dramatic (e.g. threw his Gold medal in the Ohio river). In an effort to give Joe props and stress how hard the fight was he said he almost quit. Everyone knew to take Ali's comments with a grain of salt. He was an exaggerator to put it mildly. If Joe came out for the 15th, Ali would have been right there with him. Anybody who thinks otherwise is naïve. Frazier was absolutely pummeled in the 13th round and was on his last legs in the 14th, Ali obviously knew that. Joe Frazier might have died in the ring if they let him come out for the 15th.

I'm a fan of Ali but don't entirely agree with this. I haven't heard of a fighter having two tune-up fights against world-class competition and not be ready. I'm not saying Ali was at his best but he hadn't fought somebody like Frazier. Ali could have been at his best but he'd have always struggled with Frazier,their three fights against each other proved that. As for the third fight anything could have happened if they continued. But it was a good thing that they stopped the fight.

 

[moosaev]

I'm a fan of Ali but don't entirely agree with this. I haven't heard of a fighter having two tune-up fights against world-class competition and not be ready. I'm not saying Ali was at his best but he hadn't fought somebody like Frazier. Ali could have been at his best but he'd have always struggled with Frazier,their three fights against each other proved that. As for the third fight anything could have happened if they continued. But it was a good thing that they stopped the fight.

From the Quarry fight to the Frazier fight was 5 months. Three and a half years of in-activity, that doesn't come off in five months. The Ali of 1972 looked much lighter on his feet than the Ali of 70-71. Also worth noting that he went only 3 rounds against Jerry Quarry, and 14 rounds against Oscar Bonavena in which he looked like dogshit. The point is that the pre-exile and post-exile Ali were shockingly different fighters. He was a far diminished older fighter (older than Frazier) and that's just as good an excuses as Frazier's eye.

It all comes down to this, does the Ali that fought Cleveland William beat a 1971Joe Frazier? In my opinion, he not only beats him, he embarrasses him. That's how good prime Ali was.

 

[LATEXXX COMMANDO]

I was loved in the first fight where Ali was resting and clowning on the ropes and Frazier just picks his ass off the ropes.

 

[Someone88]

From the Quarry fight to the Frazier fight was 5 months. Three and a half years of in-activity, that doesn't come off in five months. The Ali of 1972 looked much lighter on his feet than the Ali of 70-71. Also worth noting that he went only 3 rounds against Jerry Quarry, and 14 rounds against Oscar Bonavena in which he looked like dogshit. The point is that the pre-exile and post-exile Ali were shockingly different fighters. He was a far diminished older fighter (older than Frazier) and that's just as good an excuses as Frazier's eye.

It all comes down to this, does the Ali that fought Cleveland William beat a 1971Joe Frazier? In my opinion, he not only beats him, he embarrasses him. That's how good prime Ali was.

I'm assuming Ali was training for a few months before that too, so it shouldn't have been that much of a factor as you are saying. Ali had a weakness against left hooks, he was dropped by that punch at least three times in his career. Frazier had one of the best left hooks in history.

I've read and heard that Williams was past his prime, Ali put on an amazing performance for sure but he never faced a fighter of or around Frazier's calibre and pressuring style at his peak ( Liston didn't have that style ). You're saying Ali regained some of his form later, ok but he struggled against Norton in all three fights. He was trained by Futch and was a sparring partner of Frazier.

I don't know what would have it happened if they both were in their peak, but I feel that it would have been a competitive fight.

 

[moosaev]

I'm assuming Ali was training for a few months before that too, so it shouldn't have been that much of a factor as you are saying. Ali had a weakness against left hooks, he was dropped by that punch at least three times in his career. Frazier had one of the best left hooks in history.

I've read and heard that Williams was past his prime, Ali put on an amazing performance for sure but he never faced a fighter of or around Frazier's calibre and pressuring style at his peak ( Liston didn't have that style ). You're saying Ali regained some of his form later, ok but he struggled against Norton in all three fights. He was trained by Futch and was a sparring partner of Frazier.

I don't know what would have it happened if they both were in their peak, but I feel that it would have been a competitive fight.

You're making the wrong assumption about Ali training before the fight, that's exactly what he didn't do. Ali was notorious for not staying in shape between training camps. He fought an exhibition bout 3 weeks before fighting Quarry and he was 20lbs overweight!!

As for Norton giving Ali problems, Frazier was not Norton. Norton was a stylistic nightmare for Ali. He was a tall, athletic counter puncher. Ali had trouble with those type of fighters (which is why some people think Larry Holmes would've beaten Ali even in his prime). Frazier's style was more similar to Floyd Patterson's (although much better). Ali in 1966-67 would simply jab Frazier and move, the difference is that he never slowed down when he was young and never lay on the ropes. This is important because Frazier won fights by attrition. Against a young Ali he wouldn't have been able to accumulate enough punches to KO or outpoint him.

Finally, lets look at what we know: Frazier was at his peak during the FOTC, Ali was nowhere near his. And it was still a relatively close fight! Its not hard to draw a conclusion on who would've won if both were at their peaks IMO.

 

[Someone88]

Your points are valid in relation to Ali not being at his best against Frazier, the thing I don't agree with is you saying Ali would have beaten Frazier easily. From what I've seen Ali would have always struggled with Frazier, they fought three times and all the fights were competitive.

 

[moosaev]

Your points are valid in relation to Ali not being at his best against Frazier, the thing I don't agree with is you saying Ali would have beaten Frazier easily. From what I've seen Ali would have always struggled with Frazier, they fought three times and all the fights were competitive.

My point is that he was a different fighter before and after the 3.5 year layoff. So you can't really use the results of their three fights because they all happened post layoff. Ali struggled with Frazier because he got pinned against the ropes all the time, something that never happened pre-layoff (because his mobility and legs were too good). He had lost his legs when he came back and became a sitting duck. We will never know what would have actually happened but I'm personally convinced that the Ali that fought Cleveland Willliams or Zora Foley would have mopped the floor with Frazier. The 1967 version of Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all time, and probably a Top 3 all-time boxer pound for pound. That's how good he was.

 

[Someone88]

My point is that he was a different fighter before and after the 3.5 year layoff. So you can't really use the results of their three fights because they all happened post layoff. Ali struggled with Frazier because he got pinned against the ropes all the time, something that never happened pre-layoff (because his mobility and legs were too good). He had lost his legs when he came back and became a sitting duck. We will never know what would have actually happened but I'm personally convinced that the Ali that fought Cleveland Willliams or Zora Foley would have mopped the floor with Frazier. The 1967 version of Ali is the greatest heavyweight of all time, and probably a Top 3 all-time boxer pound for pound. That's how good he was.

Sorry forgot to quote you in the previous post. I just think they would have had competitive fights when both were at their best based on the reasons I mentioned, but I agree with you that Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time and he was at least a top 5 all-time pound for pound Boxer.