Ali Vs Frazier

[PaunchyLawyer]

What do you guys think of these fights? Who do you think was the better fighter? Who do you think won each one of these fights?

I'm only 20 right now and obviously wasn't present at the time of the fights, but i've heard so many rumors about the fights. I watched the full third fight. Ive heard people say that Ali and Frazier Both quit at the end of the 14th, and Ali told his trainer to cut his gloves, But fraziers corner through in the towel. I think that Frazier had Ali's number and there fights were probably the best of all time

 

[nastyleft]

What do you guys think of these fights? Who do you think was the better fighter? Who do you think won each one of these fights?

I'm only 20 right now and obviously wasn't present at the time of the fights, but i've heard so many rumors about the fights. I watched the full third fight. Ive heard people say that Ali and Frazier Both quit at the end of the 14th, and Ali told his trainer to cut his gloves, But fraziers corner through in the towel. I think that Frazier had Ali's number and there fights were probably the best of all time

Watch all of them, there's something to pick up in each one.

 

[RawHawg]

The 1st was my favorite, I was really happy for Frazier, especially to deck Ali. Joe seemed like such a great guy, very humble and charitable, and a total workman in the ring, just never stopped.

 

[Someone88]

Ali and Frazier are true legends, the greatest fighters. They were very closely matched, also Ali apparently would have continued and Frazier I have heard wasn't going to quit. Futch stopped the fight. The best trilogy for sure.

 

[wilddeuces]

1 and 3 are the more enjoyable fights. 2 is worth watching as part of that series, but overall, a solid trilogy. One of my favourite series between two tremendous fighters.

 

[Maroli]

If Frazier weren't blind in one eye, fights could've been different. Also significant size disadvantage.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

If Frazier weren't blind in one eye, fights could've been different. Also significant size disadvantage.

same if they had fought before Ali's exile. when he was Cassius Clay

 

[franquito]

Ali was ready to quit in Manila. Frazier wasn't. He never forgave his corner.
Pick up Ghosts of Manila if you like to read. Fantastic book.

Those fights, and especially the 1st, are some of the greatest athletic displays I've ever seen.

 

[kenji goh]

Also Frazier except the eye problems had a messed up arm. I am not sure which arm, I think it was the left, was permanently bent or something.

He fought this good witch such handicaps. The guy might had more guts than Ali.

 

[moosaev]

If Frazier weren't blind in one eye, fights could've been different. Also significant size disadvantage.

Excuses. Ali can play the "if" game too. If Ali wasn't exiled for boxing for 3.5 years Frazier doesn't touch him and probably gets stopped. If Ali had more tune-up fights and therefore better conditioning and less ring rust he wins the first fight.

There is a consensus now that Ali took the Frazier fight too early, but he didn't have a choice because the Supreme Court could have delivered their decision on his court case at any point, so he risked going to jail for draft dodging before cashing out on the Frazier fight. So, "if" he only had more tune-up fights.

 

[moosaev]

Ali was ready to quit in Manila. Frazier wasn't. He never forgave his corner.
Pick up Ghosts of Manila if you like to read. Fantastic book.

Those fights, and especially the 1st, are some of the greatest athletic displays I've ever seen.

This is an urban legend. Mark Kram (having an anti-Ali agenda) twisted a throwaway comment Ali made and printed that as a fact.

Ali said a lot of shit just to be dramatic (e.g. threw his Gold medal in the Ohio river). In an effort to give Joe props and stress how hard the fight was he said he almost quit. Everyone knew to take Ali's comments with a grain of salt. He was an exaggerator to put it mildly. If Joe came out for the 15th, Ali would have been right there with him. Anybody who thinks otherwise is naïve. Frazier was absolutely pummeled in the 13th round and was on his last legs in the 14th, Ali obviously knew that. Joe Frazier might have died in the ring if they let him come out for the 15th.

 

[Maroli]

Excuses. Ali can play the "if" game too. If Ali wasn't exiled for boxing for 3.5 years Frazier doesn't touch him and probably gets stopped. If Ali had more tune-up fights and therefore better conditioning and less ring rust he wins the first fight.

There is a consensus now that Ali took the Frazier fight too early, but he didn't have a choice because the Supreme Court could have delivered their decision on his court case at any point, so he risked going to jail for draft dodging before cashing out on the Frazier fight. So, "if" he only had more tune-up fights.

sure, Ali actually looked pretty out of sorts in the first fight especially in terms of movement, which I put down to ring rust. However, facts remain that Joe was

a. blind in one eye (partially in the first fight and almost fully by the time of the third)
b. much smaller

Ali had plenty of time to shake the ring rust off in the second and third fight, and spent much of the second fight clinching and we all know how the third fight went. At the end of the day, Ali is a household name and Frazier died penniless, largely because of the propaganda war waged by Ali. I don't really care how contrite he was after the fight or if he threw the medal away, the damage was done. My musing was that despite all of this, Frazier stood toe to toe and clearly doesn't deserve to be a footnote in the story.

 

[moosaev]

sure, Ali actually looked pretty out of sorts in the first fight especially in terms of movement, which I put down to ring rust. However, facts remain that Joe was

a. blind in one eye (partially in the first fight and almost fully by the time of the third)
b. much smaller

Ali had plenty of time to shake the ring rust off in the second and third fight, and spent much of the second fight clinching and we all know how the third fight went. At the end of the day, Ali is a household name and Frazier died penniless, largely because of the propaganda war waged by Ali. I don't really care how contrite he was after the fight or if he threw the medal away, the damage was done. My musing was that despite all of this, Frazier stood toe to toe and clearly doesn't deserve to be a footnote in the story.

You're showing your cards. Frazier definitely should get more respect than he deserves, but that doesn't mean we should create our own facts to fit that agenda. How blind was Frazier? As far as I know that's a story that comes from Frazier's own camp with no independent medical verification. I'm not saying that he didn't have an eye problem, but you're just regurgitating the Frazier camp talking points in an effort to compensate for the wrongs he suffered (he was totally blind in 1 eye!!!). And i'll say this once, many pro-Frazier anti-Ali stories and narratives can be traced to Mark Kram. Kram is not a credible source IMO. He has admitted that he wrote Ghosts of Manila because he wanted to counter the hagiography of Ali. Basically he thought there were too many positive depictions of Ali and he went out looking for the negative lens on Ali. He started with a conclusion and searched for evidence to fit that.

 

[Maroli]

You're showing your cards. Frazier definitely should get more respect than he deserves, but that doesn't mean we should create our own facts to fit that agenda. How blind was Frazier? As far as I know that's a story that comes from Frazier's own camp with no independent medical verification. I'm not saying that he didn't have an eye problem, but you're just regurgitating the Frazier camp talking points in an effort to compensate for the wrongs he suffered (he was totally blind in 1 eye!!!). And i'll say this once, many pro-Frazier anti-Ali stories and narratives can be traced to Mark Kram. Kram is not a credible source IMO. He has admitted that he wrote Ghosts of Manila because he wanted to counter the hagiography of Ali. Basically he thought there were too many positive depictions of Ali and he went out looking for the negative lens on Ali. He started with a conclusion and searched for evidence to fit that.

He had cataract surgery in 1975, unless he faked going into surgery, I'm pretty sure he had vision problems. Agreed that Kram made a great effort to provide a perhaps biased counterpoint to the Ali narrative, but you don't need to do anything other than watch footage on Ali to get an idea of what kind of person he could be: racist, misogynist, and a bully. Unless you think the footage of him proudly explaining that he spoke at a KKK rally or calling women his property was somehow doctored by Kram.




My opinion is that he is the top 2 greatest HWs of all time (maybe 1 with Joe Louis), a top 5 P4P goat of all time, and that his looks and charm have somehow allowed the public to forget the fact that he was a colossal a-hole for most of his prime. Oh and that he BARELY got the best of Frazier in a trilogy, a man who doesn't figure into most people's P4P top 10.

 

[moosaev]

You're

He had cataract surgery in 1975, unless he faked going into surgery, I'm pretty sure he had vision problems. Agreed that Kram made a great effort to provide a perhaps biased counterpoint to the Ali narrative, but you don't need to do anything other than watch footage on Ali to get an idea of what kind of person he could be: racist, misogynist, and a bully. Unless you think the footage of him proudly explaining that he spoke at a KKK rally or calling women his property was somehow doctored by Kram.




My opinion is that he is the top 2 greatest HWs of all time (maybe 1 with Joe Louis), a top 5 P4P goat of all time, and that his looks and charm have somehow allowed the public to forget the fact that he was a colossal a-hole for most of his prime. Oh and that he BARELY got the best of Frazier in a trilogy, a man who doesn't figure into most people's P4P top 10.

He had cataract surgery in 1975, unless he faked going into surgery, I'm pretty sure he had vision problems. Agreed that Kram made a great effort to provide a perhaps biased counterpoint to the Ali narrative, but you don't need to do anything other than watch footage on Ali to get an idea of what kind of person he could be: racist, misogynist, and a bully. Unless you think the footage of him proudly explaining that he spoke at a KKK rally or calling women his property was somehow doctored by Kram.




My opinion is that he is the top 2 greatest HWs of all time (maybe 1 with Joe Louis), a top 5 P4P goat of all time, and that his looks and charm have somehow allowed the public to forget the fact that he was a colossal a-hole for most of his prime. Oh and that he BARELY got the best of Frazier in a trilogy, a man who doesn't figure into most people's P4P top 10.

That's a profoundly uncharitable view of Ali as a person, and its devoid of the context of his time and his relationship with both his country and the Nation of Islam. Firstly, I'm firmly of the opinion that the racialist attitude of blacks in the 60s were excusable given the diabolical oppression they suffered. Ali had to experience his mom getting kicked out of department stores looking for a bathroom for him to use, couldn't eat in downtown restaurants, and all kinds of daily humiliations. America was a society that tried to program blacks to believe they were inferior, and in response some blacks attempted to inoculate themselves rom this racism by taking the opposite position (blacks were superior). Excoriating Ali for being a racist ignores that he was a product of a racist society. It also overlooks the fact that although he said racist things in the abstract, he always treated everyone (white, black, Hispanic) with care, especially children. I'm not just making that up, look up his interactions with white kids, those are not the actions of a racist.

This brings me to my second point. Ali was beholden to the Nation of Islam and relied on them for many things, security being one, and a sense of community being another. Remember Ali was the most hated man in America at one point and was in no position to alienate the NOI. What this means is he parroted a lot of their positions and stances, one of them being segregation. It was under that circumstance that he met with the KKK and spewed all that nonsense. People that know him swear that he never honestly believed that garbage but felt a sense of duty to Elijah Muhammad and the NOI.

Finally, you're being very selective in how you form your opinion of Ali. Of course he's said and done some bad things. He was a public figure for over 50 years and was involved in one of the most polarizing periods in US history (the 60s). But the overwhelming majority of evidence suggest that he was a profoundly decent human being. Whether its reporters who have witnessed his interactions, or fans, or childhood acquaintances the consensus is that he was a sensitive, caring, and generous man. Even Mark Kram admitted this. That said, he was a human being not an angel. His treatment of Joe Frazier is probably the biggest stain on his record, but why should that alone define him? Its an unfair bar to set if you dig up every negative thing he's done without the context of him as a person.

 

[Maroli]

You're



That's a profoundly uncharitable view of Ali as a person, and its devoid of the context of his time and his relationship with both his country and the Nation of Islam. Firstly, I'm firmly of the opinion that the racialist attitude of blacks in the 60s were excusable given the diabolical oppression they suffered. Ali had to experience his mom getting kicked out of department stores looking for a bathroom for him to use, couldn't eat in downtown restaurants, and all kinds of daily humiliations. America was a society that tried to program blacks to believe they were inferior, and in response some blacks attempted to inoculate themselves rom this racism by taking the opposite position (blacks were superior). Excoriating Ali for being a racist ignores that he was a product of a racist society. It also overlooks the fact that although he said racist things in the abstract, he always treated everyone (white, black, Hispanic) with care, especially children. I'm not just making that up, look up his interactions with white kids, those are not the actions of a racist.

This brings me to my second point. Ali was beholden to the Nation of Islam and relied on them for many things, security being one, and a sense of community being another. Remember Ali was the most hated man in America at one point and was in no position to alienate the NOI. What this means is he parroted a lot of their positions and stances, one of them being segregation. It was under that circumstance that he met with the KKK and spewed all that nonsense. People that know him swear that he never honestly believed that garbage but felt a sense of duty to Elijah Muhammad and the NOI.

Finally, you're being very selective in how you form your opinion of Ali. Of course he's said and done some bad things. He was a public figure for over 50 years and was involved in one of the most polarizing periods in US history (the 60s). But the overwhelming majority of evidence suggest that he was a profoundly decent human being. Whether its reporters who have witnessed his interactions, or fans, or childhood acquaintances the consensus is that he was a sensitive, caring, and generous man. Even Mark Kram admitted this. That said, he was a human being not an angel. His treatment of Joe Frazier is probably the biggest stain on his record, but why should that alone define him? Its an unfair bar to set if you dig up every negative thing he's done without the context of him as a person.

Honestly, your points are well made and I appreciate them. My beef with Ali stems from the fact that people have casually overlooked or don't know about some of the extremely inflammatory things he has done/said (and things for which I feel he was contrite for after the fact). It was a very tumultuous time in US history and he was a product of misinformation as much as most racist people were and continue to be. I'm not expecting everyone to act like the great MLK, but the fact that MLK himself said that Ali was 'a champion of segregation' shows how far removed their philosophies were. That said, the person he was probably most racist to was Frazier himself, constantly berating his skin colour and labeling him an Uncle Tom. He also left his wife and four kids for a lovely, light skinned 18 year old and made it a point to hang out with both Gaddafi and Idi Amin when he was in Africa. Do I think he was a bad person? Not at all, I think he just was very, very into himself and his misguided philosophies I think he's a very important historical figure but lets be real; he could say the things he said and did and get away with it because of his profound athletic ability, charisma, and looks. I'm fairly sure Liston or Frazier would've been crucified if they acted like that. Ali had a side to him that is largely unknown by his adoring fans. But as you noted, the man has done a great deal for charity since his boxing years and continues to do so through his foundation so there is that.

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

If Frazier weren't blind in one eye, fights could've been different. Also significant size disadvantage.

Bull on the size thing. Frzier was a HW boxer. Ali moving up from LWH is what gave Evander the courage to do so like he says in interview.

 

[moosaev]

Honestly, your points are well made and I appreciate them. My beef with Ali stems from the fact that people have casually overlooked or don't know about some of the extremely inflammatory things he has done/said (and things for which I feel he was contrite for after the fact). It was a very tumultuous time in US history and he was a product of misinformation as much as most racist people were and continue to be. I'm not expecting everyone to act like the great MLK, but the fact that MLK himself said that Ali was 'a champion of segregation' shows how far removed their philosophies were. That said, the person he was probably most racist to was Frazier himself, constantly berating his skin colour and labeling him an Uncle Tom. He also left his wife and four kids for a lovely, light skinned 18 year old and made it a point to hang out with both Gaddafi and Idi Amin when he was in Africa. Do I think he was a bad person? Not at all, I think he just was very, very into himself and his misguided philosophies I think he's a very important historical figure but lets be real; he could say the things he said and did and get away with it because of his profound athletic ability, charisma, and looks. I'm fairly sure Liston or Frazier would've been crucified if they acted like that. Ali had a side to him that is largely unknown by his adoring fans. But as you noted, the man has done a great deal for charity since his boxing years and continues to do so through his foundation so there is that.

Ali could definitely be narcissistic and was for sure a flawed person. I just think its unfair when people use that to draw broad conclusions about him. And while I see your point, i'll also say that he didn't actually get away with what he said and did. He was exiled from boxing for 3.5 years unjustly, stripped of his title, and at one point couldn't even feed his family for lack of work. He was about as popular as Osama bin Laden for 6-7 years. Those are real consequences and honestly I think its more the reason why people overlook a lot of his negatives not his looks or charisma. He was always willing to pay the price and that earned him a lot of points. Just imagine, he could've easily avoided all those hardships by joining the army and doing a few exhibition bouts for a couple years. Instead he chose jail and the universal hatred of his countrymen. You have to admire that.

 

[Maroli]

Ali could definitely be narcissistic and was for sure a flawed person. I just think its unfair when people use that to draw broad conclusions about him. And while I see your point, i'll also say that he didn't actually get away with what he said and did. He was exiled from boxing for 3.5 years unjustly, stripped of his title, and at one point couldn't even feed his family for lack of work. He was about as popular as Osama bin Laden for 6-7 years. Those are real consequences and honestly I think its more the reason why people overlook a lot of his negatives not his looks or charisma. He was always willing to pay the price and that earned him a lot of points. Just imagine, he could've easily avoided all those hardships by joining the army and doing a few exhibition bouts for a couple years. Instead he chose jail and the universal hatred of his countrymen. You have to admire that.

Yes, definitely admire his willingness to back up his talk and think in revolutionary ways. Certainly a complex figure and no angel, but most historically interesting/significant people aren't. At the end of the day, there will never be another and he is to be lauded for his post-boxing work. Actually what made me realize he wasn't the boogeyman was when Holmes sadly put a terrible beating on him and went to visit him in the hospital after and Ali said ' I want Larry Holmes!!' in a jokingly threatening manner. At that point I realized a lot of what he did prior was just bluster. Cheers.

 

[Maroli]

Bull on the size thing. Frzier was a HW boxer. Ali moving up from LWH is what gave Evander the courage to do so like he says in interview.

Uh, okay. Frazier weighed in at 205 for most of his career and tried to put on weight for Ali but was clearly outsized, Also gave up around 8 inches in reach and 5 inches in height. Foreman himself said Frazier was 5'10 max. There isn't a person on this forum that will tell you that Frazier was not an undersized heavyweight.

http://www.espn.com/blog/dan-rafael/post/_/id/565/george-foreman-remembers-joe-frazier