Alcohol and tobacco are by far the biggest threat to human welfare of all addictive drugs

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Son of Jamin, May 16, 2018.

  1. trolldum

    trolldum Blue Belt

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    Almost all of them when compared with really moderate drinking. I'm not sure when it comes to smoking some pot though.
     
  2. HomerThompson

    HomerThompson President of the War Room Platinum Member

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    What's really moderate drinking? Are we including caffeine as a drug?
     
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  3. trolldum

    trolldum Blue Belt

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    Few drinks once in a while. That's less harmful than consuming any amount of most drugs.

    And I wouldn't include caffeine as a drug. But too much can be bad.

     
  4. Son of Jamin

    Son of Jamin Make MMA Great Again

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    In 1988, Sweden criminalized the use of drugs and the responsible government agency for studying crime in Sweden, the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention conducted an evaluation of the change of laws, they drew the following conclusions;

    * The data doesn't show that fewer people use drugs as a result of the criminalization.
    * The only verifiable change is that the police shifted focus from dealers to users (this was not the intention behind the criminalization of drug use).
    * Approximately 75-80% of those that are charged with drug related crimes are users, not dealers.

    Furthermore, Sweden has among the highest death toll of drug use in the EU per capita.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  5. Kafir-kun

    Kafir-kun not-so-grand mufti of Sherdog

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    Not surprising, alcohol and tobacco are a scourge. And yet, in the West one is highly maligned while the other is heavily promoted. I'm not saying we should ban either but we should heavily restrict them. In my ideal society liquor stores would be the only place you could purchase alcohol and and zoning laws would keep them them far from schools, parks, residential areas etc. I'd also like to see crimes where alcohol was a factor, like DUIs and domestic violence, being severely punished.

    In the West we've already decided to go after tobacco and essentially dismantle the public culture around it. Nowadays its really in the developing world that tobacco companies see growth as tobacco consumption in the developed world has plummeted. We need to do the same for alcohol.

    And as someone who smokes pot I have to say I feel the same for it. Its generally less harmful and it does have medical benefits but even still, I don't want to see it widely accepted. I don't want to see billboard ads for dispensaries or Amsterdam style coffee shops, I just want to be able to smoke it without having to worry about being arrested. I don't need people to endorse or accept this vice of mine, just a bare minimum level of legal tolerance for it.
     
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  6. Kafir-kun

    Kafir-kun not-so-grand mufti of Sherdog

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    I think that's generally true but perhaps the difference isn't as big as you think. I found it easier to buy weed in middle school than alcohol. Who would sell alcohol to a 13 year old? Not many legal establishments. But getting weed off my friend wasn't too hard, just had to ask.

    And here's another anecdote for ya. I had to drop a relative off in a distant city for a job. When we got there we toured the city a bit and while walking down a residential neighborhood we ran into a friendly local who struck up a conversation with us. In the middle of the conversation I could smell someone smoking weed at one of the houses and at the end of the conversation the guy offered us weed. Within 24 hours of being in a completely unfamiliar city we were able to find a contact for weed, that's how easy it is.

    Harder drugs are a different story but weed is pretty ubiquitous at this point.
     
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  7. Son of Jamin

    Son of Jamin Make MMA Great Again

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    I co-sign!

    I have used ecstasy and cocaine in the past but today, I'm almost an absolutist. I have a glass of champagne on a special occasion but nothing more than that.

    I'm all for legalization and decriminalization but I don't want any drug to be promoted, I agree with zoning laws, I want proper information to students from an early age about the pros and cons (not propaganda because children today are too knowledgeable on the subject).

    As for your suggestion that alcohol should only be sold in liquor stores, that is how it works in Sweden where the government has a monopoly on selling strong alcohol. Swedes still drink more than many other European countries, which I believe is linked to different cultures and if regular food stores could sell strong alcohol, maybe Swedes would drink even more than they do today.
     
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  8. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I think the difference is quite large.

    I'm sure that in middle school, if you went to a friend's house, alcohol was available via the parent's stash. But did you know your friend's weed dealer and without your friend's access, could you have found a dealer as easily as you could have found a liquor seller (I think you can get beer in most supermarkets) and I'd gamble money that the vast majority of your friend's parents had liquor in the house. We all know that middle school kids are already drinking at high rates. Rates that probably exceed their use of illegal drugs, including weed.

    And while you may have easily found a weed contact, it was predicated on luck (sniffing it out from someone who happened to be smoking while you were nearby). You could have found alcohol even easier, within seconds of entering the city, google would have directed you to a seller.

    And legal weed would be even easier to obtain than the current options.
     
  9. Kafir-kun

    Kafir-kun not-so-grand mufti of Sherdog

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    It wasn't just that I smelled it, the guy openly offered us weed. Its definitely easier to get alcohol but I'm saying with weed the difference might not be as large as you think, at least for some populations like students for instance.
     
  10. Trotsky

    Trotsky Social Capitalist / Capitalistic Communist

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    What exactly is the angle here?

    Anyone who is passingly familiar with US vices would know this: 70% of Americans drink alcohol (with half of that engaging in binge drinking) and 20% of Americans use tobacco.
     
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  11. Kafir-kun

    Kafir-kun not-so-grand mufti of Sherdog

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    I very rarely drink and I'd like to keep it that way. I pretty much only drink with a certain friend of mine and that's about it and even then I often refuse when he offers.
    That's interesting, wasn't aware of that. There's only so much policy can do and as you allude to at some point it comes down to culture. But culture can change, as evidenced by the increasingly taboo image of smoking.
     
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  12. kpt018

    kpt018 Gold Belt

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    SOJ didn't hash that but I think the issue here is that things like opioids, weed, etc. are politically charged topics whereas no one really gives alcohol much thought at all and due to a host of reasons alcohol is doing way more to ruin lives than probably all illegal drugs combined (leaving aside damage done by black markets).

    There's a lot of talk about the opioid epidemic and virtually nothing on an alcohol epidemic.
     
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  13. Ice That Jaw

    Ice That Jaw Red Belt

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    Easy, over 100 million americans drink alcohol in some form. How many million domestic abuse cases from alcohol occur each year? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?
     
  14. AtomicPanther

    AtomicPanther Brown Belt

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    Keep telling yourself they're the same. My dad died of cancer. Not only did it take him early, the last 5+ years of his life were miserable. It's not just that they're killing you, there's a good chance it will be a long, miserable end.

    Good luck. But hey, at least you're cool.
     
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  15. Prutfis

    Prutfis Master of pups

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    1. Never said I smoked

    2. Massively polluted areas of inner cities are certainly as bad for you as smoking

    3. Chiiiil Winston
     
  16. AtomicPanther

    AtomicPanther Brown Belt

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    I don't live in a city, worst smell here is when the Amish spray the fields. I'm pretty the manure didn't give my dad cancer.

    So, you're just confrontational then?
     
  17. sweede

    sweede Purple Belt

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    Great thread! 1 day away and to many pages to read. LOL

    Some thoughts I have.

    - As I´m familiar with both Swedish and Danish lifestyle, I think it´s rather odd to come back to Sweden and the special stores to buy alcohol. But that is the beauty of being close neighbours and still be different in many aspects of life. Still I think it´s a good Idea for Sweden to enforce special shops to buy it. Maybe we need a caring guide line, so we don´t overstep our personal limits.

    - I´m a bit radical on this one. It´s good that we have fewer and fewer public areas where people can smoke cigarettes. But I would like to have an absoule message like the one with fossil free cars in 2030. Why not a tobacco free Sweden in 2030? What good comes from smoking a pack of cigarettes per day?

    - Back to Denmark again. We should in Sweden enforce special animal fat and sugar taxes like they do over the Sound. If we could somehow lower our total intake of these 2, our healthcare cost would lower dramatically.

    Cheers, fellow swede
     
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  18. Orgasmo

    Orgasmo Red Belt

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    Did you not see the part in my source that clearly stated the benefits were based on outdated methods of research?
     
  19. Prutfis

    Prutfis Master of pups

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    Not at all. You were the one getting all pissy because your dad got cancer.
     
  20. Son of Jamin

    Son of Jamin Make MMA Great Again

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    Interesting reflections!

    I wholeheartedly agree that it's interesting to compare to similar nations like Denmark. I have read that Danish people drinks the most alcohol in the EU. But only measuring consumption doesn't paint the whole picture. Perhaps Danish people consume alcohol more often but less at each time compared to Swedes?

    As for tobacco, I think Sweden has the fewest smokers in the EU and I think that success can be contributed to taxation and proper information as well as not glamorizing smoking in media. That is the model I think we should enact when it comes to illegal drugs as well.
     
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