Al Snow says all matches in Pancrase were 100% works

[dudefacemcghee]

agree/disagree? Guys were hitting each other for real but there were predetermined outcomes. Guys wouldn't crank submissions unless it was a finish, KOs were called by the ref and a fighter would simply turn and give up and fall to strikes.

It's not hard to believe. Plus without close fist strikes it's way easier to fake

 

[shinobimusashi]

HHHHHHHHEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDD


man me and my older brother were sayin that shit way before we knew what it was. war attitude era.

I got in trouble in school because I wrote "Got Head?" on one of the desks. They took me to the principals office and she thought it was funny because when she asked me what it meant I told her it was a pro wrestling thing. She laughed and told me to get out of her office. Later on I pinned a paper to her door that said "Suck It Bitch". Good times.

 

[YellowBaneno]

How is it salty to want non-fixed fights? Doesn't everyone?

You want non- fixed fight ? Then why are you keep trying to make a normal fight into a fixed fight ?

Seems like you are salty enough to wish some fight were fixed.

 

[shinobimusashi]

"I'm fairly certain most of Pancrase was a work"

Interesting..

So many of the matches from 93 to 96 look no different than a PWFG match, a lot of guys that fought each other in Pancrase actually wrestled each other in worked matches in PWFG. That crew had worked matches down to a science.

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

So many of the matches from 93 to 96 look no different than a PWFG match, a lot of guys that fought each other in Pancrase actually wrestled each other in worked matches in PWFG. That crew had worked matches down to a science.

Hmmmm.. When u say "most", this word is pretty heavy. Since there were so many, I would be glad to hear about... lets say... some 10 fixed fights, according to u...

 

[The ScorpioN]

Go 45 seconds in. Thisisso fake

Roid rage, Shammy probably didn't realize he was supposed to win anyway. Or didn't kow the opponent was throwing the fight.

Massive ego on the poor guy.

 

[Choco]

MMA is Vale Tudo´s heir, so ure technically right, Early Pancrase was not Vale Tudo stricto sensu..

Weak reasoning. Modern MMA is waaay closer to Shooto than NHB/Valetudo. Plenty of rules, Weight Classes, +technique -barbaric shit, +sport - freackshow, manlets, Judges....

Unless you are ready to accept, that MMA is not really MMA.

Regarding of how much of Pancrase was a work, I'm pretty sure that pretty much NO ONE here knows for sure. People believes what the want to, or what fits his agenda.

And talking about works, It's cute how people are ready to discard logic and common sense and believe that there not works in the UFC in the Art Davie/Roiron tenure....

 

[The ScorpioN]

Hmmmm.. When u say "most", this word is pretty heavy. Since there were so many, I would be glad to hear about... lets say... some 10 fixed fights, according to u...

Check Masakatsu Funaki vs Suzuki. Notice the choreography, then use some simple reasoning to compare and extrapolate to the rest of the org.

 

[Captain Herb]

You want non- fixed fight ? Then why are you keep trying to make a normal fight into a fixed fight ?

Seems like you are salty enough to wish some fight were fixed.

I don't know if any of Mcgregor's fights were fixed. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. How could I make it fixed? I don't get your drift.

 

[YellowBaneno]

I don't know if any of Mcgregor's fights were fixed. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. How could I make it fixed? I don't get your drift.

You claiming it was fixed by bring his fight into this thread.

Let's not plat dumb, In your salty head the fight was already fixed. You just needed an excuse to openly claim it.

 

[Fullmount Triangle]

He's not talking about pancrace, he's talking about UWFI which was strong style Puroresu, which eventually lead to the Pancrase league.

This is what he was taking about.



If you're interested here's a history lesson of how pro wrestling eventually became MMA (credit to @shinobimusashi )

It all goes back to Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson, who trained together in old school catch wrestling, both went their different ways in the pro wrestling world and ultimately both of them ended up in Japan training pro wrestlers.

Gotch trained Yoshiaki Fujiwara, who trained Suzuki and Funaki, who recruited and trained Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, and Rutten, going on to found Pancrase. Robinson would train most of the UWFI wrestlers that would go on to become Pride.

I don't think a lot of modern fans really understand the influence that Rings had on Pride. Pride basically swallowed up Rings, took their best fighters(Fedor, Overeem, etc), stole their ideas, then put them out of business in 2002, right around the time that Pride really started to kick ass.

The guy who founded Rings, Akira Maeda is connected to Takada, Fujiwara, and Tiger Mask. Those four guys all came out of the same dojo and basically laid the groundwork for what MMA would become. Their bidding war over Rickson Gracie would basically shape the history of MMA.

If you take away pro wrestling's direct influence on MMA history, you take away Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Suzuki, Funaki, Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten, Sakuraba, Takada, Fedor, Pancrase, Pride, Rings, Shooto never happens. I think it's safe to say that maybe MMA never happens, especially when you consider the influence that pro wrestling had on Mitsuyo Maeda, who taught the Gracies how to grapple.

Maeda was living in a YMCA in Alabama at one point during his travels, learning tricks of the trade from the pro wrestlers he befriended in the 1900's. He basically taught the Gracie's Judo with some old school pro wrestling tricks and submissions worked into it. I mean, if you take all of that away, where does that leave MMA?

the history of UWFI is fascinating when you really look at it, especially in the context of pro wrestling and MMA side by side. UWFI's invasion of NJPW was straight up stolen by Eric Bischoff to create the NWO, UWFI ended up going out of business because UWFI sold itself as being real fighters, and they lost the feud so clearly and then Takada refused to fight Rickson Gracie after Rickson beat up Yoji Anjo, leading people to believe that Takada wasn't as tough as they thought he was. Takada would create PRIDE to fight Rickson for real after UWFI folded to save face. Sakuraba, another UWFI person, ended up becoming huge because he was what UWFI advertised - a real catch wrestler who could fight the best fighters in the world.

People want to separate MMA and Wrestling, but in Japan, the influence is inescapable, places like Pancrase are a DIRECT RESULT of Wrestling, with Funaki and Suzuki having matches played like shoots in the 80's and realizing there's some money in shootfighting so they made Pancrase, which predates the UFC.

 

[Reaperman]

Didn't Bas Rutten literally rupture that kung fu dudes's liver in an event there? That seems kind of extreme for a work......

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

Weak reasoning. Modern MMA is waaay closer to Shooto than NHB/Valetudo. Plenty of rules, Weight Classes, +technique -barbaric shit, +sport - freackshow, manlets, Judges....

Unless you are ready to accept, that MMA is not really MMA.

Regarding of how much of Pancrase was a work, I'm pretty sure that pretty much NO ONE here knows for sure. People believes what the want to, or what fits his agenda.

And talking about works, It's cute how people are ready to discard logic and common sense and believe that there not works in the UFC in the Art Davie/Roiron tenure....

"Weak reasoning. Modern MMA is waaay closer to Shooto than NHB/Valetudo. Plenty of rules, Weight Classes, +technique -barbaric shit, +sport - freackshow, manlets, Judges...."

ahahahahahahahahaha

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

Check Masakatsu Funaki vs Suzuki. Notice the choreography, then use some simple reasoning to compare and extrapolate to the rest of the org.

Hmmmm... I see...

Hmmmmm..

That´s one. Any more?

 

[shinobimusashi]

Hmmmm.. When u say "most", this word is pretty heavy. Since there were so many, I would be glad to hear about... lets say... some 10 fixed fights, according to u...

I'm not going to sit here and say for sure that I know 100%, I'm just saying that based on what I've seen of the shoot style pro wrestling that predated Pancrase, to me it appears that Pancrase was more of the same. Shamrock vs Hume is already widely considered to be a work, as is Shamrock vs Suzuki the match they had before Shamrock fought Severn in UFC. I'm sure there were legit fights here and there, and I'm not saying this to be negative towards Pancrase or any of these fighters, I think it's awesome, and even the worked fights still had legit technique that was way ahead of it's time for where MMA was. All of Frank Shamrock's fights in Pancrase look suspicious to me, every single one of them. One of the Suzuki vs Rutten fights I watched not too long ago looked no different from a worked PWFG match. Shamrock vs Takahashi had a lot of matches in PWFG. Shamrock, Funaki, and Suzuki all wrestled each other countless times in worked PWFG matches, their Pancrase fights don't look any more realistic than some of those matches. Suzuki vs Maurice Smith, anything with Yanagisawa, Takahashi, these guys were training in the PWFG dojo with Karl Gotch and doing worked matches together for 2+ years before Funaki and Suzuki stole everybody away from PWFG to start Pancrase. They made the fights look really good because they were legit in the dojo, they went at it for real and what happened in the dojo determined what happened on fight night.

I'll take it one further, I think Sakuraba vs Vernon White and Sakuraba vs Carlos Newton in Pride were possibly worked shoot style pro wrestling matches.

 

[The ScorpioN]

Hmmmm... I see...

Hmmmmm..

That´s one. Any more?

I gave you 2 off the top of my head. I'm not gonna go through the whole pancrase library to point out obvious shady stuff.

You should though, there's a lot of very obvious looking pro wrestling matches.

 

[Captain Herb]

You claiming it was fixed by bring his fight into this thread.

Let's not plat dumb, In your salty head the fight was already fixed. You just needed an excuse to openly claim it.

OK dude, whatever you say. I definitely wasn't trying to make you so mad.

 

[Taco Loco]

Like I'm gonna waste my time listening to a fuckin tard that walks around talking to a mannequin head.

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

I'm not going to sit here and say for sure that I know 100%, I'm just saying that based on what I've seen of the shoot style pro wrestling that predated Pancrase, to me it appears that Pancrase was more of the same. Shamrock vs Hume is already widely considered to be a work, as is Shamrock vs Suzuki the match they had before Shamrock fought Severn in UFC. I'm sure there were legit fights here and there, and I'm not saying this to be negative towards Pancrase or any of these fighters, I think it's awesome, and even the worked fights still had legit technique that was way ahead of it's time for where MMA was. All of Frank Shamrock's fights look suspicious to me, every single one of them. One of the Suzuki vs Rutten fights I watched not too long ago looked no different from a worked PWFG match. Shamrock vs Takahashi had a lot of matches in PWFG. Shamrock, Funaki, and Suzuki all wrestled each other countless times in worked PWFG matches, their Pancrase fights don't look any more realistic than some of those matches. Suzuki vs Maurice Smith, anything with Yanagisawa, Takahashi, these guys were training in the PWFG dojo with Karl Gotch and doing worked matches together for 2+ years before Funaki and Suzuki stole everybody away from PWFG to start Pancrase. They made the fights look really good because they were legit in the dojo, they went at it for real and what happened in the dojo determined what happened on fight night.

I'll take it one further, I think Sakuraba vs Vernon White and Sakuraba vs Carlos Newton in Pride were possibly worked shoot style pro wrestling matches.

Considering that Early Pancrase had some 350 fights aprox, that´s a pretty low % of fixed fights.
People are using the word "Most" a lil bit recklessly..

Ronin vs Saku was not a work.

The unofficial theory claimed that it was a non-verbal agreement, but I´ll go further:
both were always reluctant to throw punches while in the guard.
They had a real aversion to it, as if it were some kind of unworthy thing to do.

Even standing, Ronin (while always saying b4 all his Pride fights, that he had been working on his striking) would hardly show his new striking skills.

Hence, I believe there was no non-verbal agreement at all: Saku did his usual thing in the guard, showing no interest in setting his submission attempts with strikes.
Acknowledging this, Ronin understood his intentions, and got interested in outsmarting him in the grappling game, and made it a point to try to win in the very same way, as a personal challenge.


In the Saku vs Tiger White case: remember, Tiger was originally a striker, who had mainly experience in Vale Tudo [World Vale Tudo Championship] and Pancrase, where he started to learn about the ground game but still was always dominated there.
During the fight, he was outgrappled by the superior Saku, and spent the whole fight defending positions or subs, but always 1 or 2 moves late.

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

I gave you 2 off the top of my head. I'm not gonna go through the whole pancrase library to point out obvious shady stuff.

You should though, there's a lot of very obvious looking pro wrestling matches.

Considering that Early Pancrase had some 350 fights aprox, that´s a pretty low % of fixed fights.
People are using the word "Most" a lil bit recklessly..