Actors that crushed it as heroes and villains

[moreorless87]

Heh, I was kidding. The film is awesome.

Just saying, Laura Dern was smoking hot in it.

To be fair it wouldn't be nearly as effective if she wasn't and achieving that isn't just a matter to having her undress.

 

[Bob Gray]

Which has always been a major weakness in First World countries, as it often results in the punishment not fitting the crime. The Law isn't Justice. It's what you get in place of Justice.

Look, you said Iron Man could only stand and bang with Thor because the God of Thunder gave him a massive power up via lightning strike. Sorry, but that's like saying Werdum only beat Cain in Mexico City because Cain didn't have a long enough training camp to get used to the altitude. It may be true, but it's certainly not Werdum or Stark's fault. You fight the guy in front of you, and if he makes a silly mistake, you damn well exploit it.

And yeah, the Super Soldier Serum is Juicing with the Knobs Turned up to 11. I'll quote Stark again from the first Avengers movie,

"You're a lab experiment, Rogers. Everything special about you came out of a bottle".

Your view on justice is skewed. Any system has punishments not fitting the crime, thats not something that only occurs in first person countries. It would actually occur less in first world countries.

Who wold beat who under such and such rules? Who cares? Your analogies are terrible. Getting a 300% boost from a lightning strike doesnt mean he can "hang with Thor". Comparing super hero fights to sanctioned MMA fights doesnt work on any level. The entire reason Iron Man needed the power boost was because him going against Thor was a complete mismatch.

The whole point of Tonys quote is that he's wrong. Cap couldnt even be a super soldier unless he was as good a person as he is. That was the whole theme of the first avenger movie.



And holy crap, how are we talking about justice in first world countries? The point was that:

A) Iron Man certainly cant hang with Thor without some sort of massive power boost that he cant give himself. Loot at Thor in Infinity War. Tony Stark cannot beat that guy.

B) Being under the fictional mind control that happens in movies does not make you responsible for the actions someone else had you do.


This isnt even a thread about this topic so Im-a sit out the rest of this conversation.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Did you finally watch the movie and notice the nazis? I noticed you're not spazzing about them anymore. Congrats on watching the First Avenger Mr. War of 1812.

You're trying to argue with me about concepts you don't even understand. Trying to sate bloodlust isn't heroic. Lol at "rules of vendetta." That doesn't even make you a man, that makes you the equivalent of a gangbanger or a thug. Welcome to the ghetto. Maybe you haven't noticed, but Cap and T'Challa were trying to stop the cycle of violence. Do I think Cap would have murdered Happy Hogan? No. He would have tried to rehabilitate him. He could have cut off Stark's head for all the crazy shit he did do, Tony Stark, the person you called the villain of AoU. But he didn't. He let Stark imprison himself in his mind and gave him a phone. You don't blame Zemo, but you feel he needed the villain comeuppance. Don't try to weasel out now. You know him and Stark are parallel characters. You can claim gangbanger code guides them and claim it to be man code all you want but they're the villains.

Tony comes back a little when Rhodey gets crippled. He knows he's going too far. That's why he only knocks out Falcon at that point. That's why he decides to meet Cap at the facility. But then he loses his mind again. As I keep saying, it's a story of a guy going from hero to villain due to the erosion of his mind. He doesn't even know where Vision is after Civil War. It's well done by Marvel and RDJ.

Tony needs to start a family because he's only going to have more friends if he makes them, with a woman on his pay roll. He needs that level of control of his out of control life. He found Spidey first and made a kid fist fight Cap, but the way Spidey acts is more like Cap. Then he tries to control Spidey by bribing him with tech.
Maybe you're twisted enough that you think being a genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist makes you a good man. Philanthropist could be a symptom of being a good man, it could also be a symptom of being a billionaire. A billionaire that made his money war profiteering. It's a great comeback line in avengers. But we find out it's his curse over the course of the rest of the MCU. He has book smarts, money, employees, women, women that are employees but his ability to dictate his moral compass is lost. He goes from the star hero of the show to a villian and now a lonely loser. That's his tragedy. Can he come back? Cap gave him that option. Cap didn't chop off his head and give in to the cycle of violence.

As for what Cap has. Maybe you didn't see First Avenger after all:

I had the Red Skull from First Avenger as my avatar for years. I only changed it when the IW trailer dropped, when I used Thanos as my Av before finally changing to the one I have now. I've actually gone on record in this forum as saying First Avenger is one of my favourite MCU movies. My Sig used to read, Hail Hydra! There's even videos of me in one of the F13 competitions lifting weights while wearing a Red Skull mask!

Again, don't try and argue with me about the MCU. Your knowledge is so limited it's like me trying to argue about the best way to cover up child abuse with the Pope. You're way out of your league, boy.

And I notice you have withdrawn your ridiculous claim that I didn't know there were Nazis in FA. Concession accepted.

Yeah, Cap is a good man. So what? If Erskine hadn't invented the Super Soldier Serum, Rogers wouldn't even have served in the military. With all his health problems, he would have died young. And probably a virgin. Stark, on the other hand, didn't need anyone to hand him his super powers on a platter. Kidnapped by terrorists, dying from a shrapnel wound, he built the very first Iron Man suit,

"In a cave! From a box of scraps!"

 

[KnightTemplar]

Your view on justice is skewed. Any system has punishments not fitting the crime, thats not something that only occurs in first person countries. It would actually occur less in first world countries.

Who wold beat who under such and such rules? Who cares? Your analogies are terrible. Getting a 300% boost from a lightning strike doesnt mean he can "hang with Thor". Comparing super hero fights to sanctioned MMA fights doesnt work on any level. The entire reason Iron Man needed the power boost was because him going against Thor was a complete mismatch.

The whole point of Tonys quote is that he's wrong. Cap couldnt even be a super soldier unless he was as good a person as he is. That was the whole theme of the first avenger movie.



And holy crap, how are we talking about justice in first world countries? The point was that:

A) Iron Man certainly cant hang with Thor without some sort of massive power boost that he cant give himself. Loot at Thor in Infinity War. Tony Stark cannot beat that guy.

B) Being under the fictional mind control that happens in movies does not make you responsible for the actions someone else had you do.


This isnt even a thread about this topic so Im-a sit out the rest of this conversation.

You are, of course, utterly wrong about the so-called justice system in first world countries. People who actually have faith in police, judges and politicians are only slightly less retarded than those who believe in god, allah, whatever. But that is a discussion for another Thread, so I will restrict my comments to comic book matters.

We don't actually know how the fight would have ended without the lightning strike, as it happened right at the start of the fight. Before that, Stark was able to take Thor by surprised and carry him a considerable distance away from Loki. It should also be noted that he knocked Loki on his ass in Germany without the benefit of a power up. Loki was able to hang with Thor, even though fighting wasn't his speciality.

Without Erskine inventing Super Soldier PED's, Rogers would never have served in the military. With his health problems he would have died young. And probably a virgin. Stark, on the other hand, didn't need any help to become a Super Hero. Badly wounded and kidnapped by terrorists, he built the first Iron Man suit,

"In a cave! From a box of scraps!"

 

[Magooglie]

I had the Red Skull from First Avenger as my avatar for years. I only changed it when the IW trailer dropped, when I used Thanos as my Av before finally changing to the one I have now. I've actually gone on record in this forum as saying First Avenger is on of my favourite MCU movies. Again, don't try and argue with me about the MCU. Your knowledge is so limited it's like me trying to argue about the best way to cover up child abuse with the Pope. You're way out of your league, boy.

And I notice you have withdrawn your ridiculous claim that I didn't know there were Nazis in FA. Concession accepted.

Yeah, Cap is a good man. So what? If Erskine hadn't invented the Super Soldier Serum, Rogers wouldn't even have served in the military. With all his health problems, he would have died young. And probably a virgin. Stark, on the other hand, didn't need anyone to hand him his super powers on a platter. Kidnapped by terrorists, dying from a shrapnel wound, he built the very first Iron Man suit,

"In a cave! From a box of scraps!"

You could have watched First Avenger while you were "sleeping" during this thread lol. But before this thread, you didn't watch it. And you probably did watch it sleeping considering you don't even get the importance of Captain America and the theme of ending cycles of violence that was shown in Civil War and carried into Black Panther. It's sad that you claim to know so much above First Avenger but don't anything about the movie. Maybe you jerked it too hard to Red Skull's scenes and went blind. You've abandoned your vendetta argument because it puts you at the level of thugs and gangbangers and someone from the movie that YOU actually consider to be a villain, Zemo. Stark and Zemo have the same motivations and I guess that was too much for your little thug mind to handle. Maybe you should discuss covering up pedophilia with the Pope considering how base you are. Concession accepted. Stark is the villain, accepted. Your loss of this argument, I accept! You came into this thread confused but now you leave with a little more knowledge. The knowledge that Cap is the hero and Stark is the villain.

As for these tack on arguments you like to have as a distraction; The army could have chosen any thug or vengeance idealizer to be Captain America. But Erskine knew they needed a good man. Stark was handed his company by his father, his money by his father, his education by his father, his very genes and intelligence come from his father. His father could have injected himself with the super soldier serum. But his father admired Steve Rogers. Because he's a good man. Howard Stark knew what was needed. And you don't just go around saying you're a good man like a bludgeon to embarrass others like saying you're a billionaire, playboy, philanthropist. Those qualities that you think are "good" can apply to a lot of villains too. They can build tech marvels, they can be geniuses, they can have money, they can be charming. You're describing Aldrich Killian from Iron Man 3. But are they good? That's why Cap had to eat that insult you like so much. Cap had to show his goodness and Cap has shown it in spades while Tony has withered because of his diminishing conscience. Stark was the type of person that Erskine was talking about when he said it's nothing if you have power but no compassion. If you try to murder for vendettas instead of try to rehabilitate. That's not the hero, that's the villain.

 

[Psychedelic]

Chael Patrick Sonnen.

 

[Bob Gray]

You are, of course, utterly wrong about the so-called justice system in first world countries. People who actually have faith in police, judges and politicians are only slightly less retarded than those who believe in god, allah, whatever. But that is a discussion for another Thread, so I will restrict my comments to comic book matters.

Except you made no attempt to restrict your comments at all.

Youre doing this all the time. Taking an argument and running entirely into a completely different direction. We started with Bucky not being responsible for his crimes due to brainwashing, and now in a couple of posts youre off and talking about the laws of first world countries and theology.

We don't actually know how the fight would have ended without the lightning strike, as it happened right at the start of the fight. Before that, Stark was able to take Thor by surprised and carry him a considerable distance away from Loki. It should also be noted that he knocked Loki on his ass in Germany without the benefit of a power up. Loki was able to hang with Thor, even though fighting wasn't his speciality.

Since Iron Man was triple his normal power and he still needed intervention from cap, its pretty easy to argue that without said power up and without cap he wouldnt have had a chance. Even with the power up hes getting his suit crushed, and losing a headbutt contest.

Without Erskine inventing Super Soldier PED's, Rogers would never have served in the military. With his health problems he would have died young. And probably a virgin. Stark, on the other hand, didn't need any help to become a Super Hero. Badly wounded and kidnapped by terrorists, he built the first Iron Man suit,

"In a cave! From a box of scraps!"

What does any of this schizophrenic train of thought have to do with the price of tea in China?

A: No, Iron man does not beat Thor without some sort of help

B: Being brainwashed and having your actions controlled by an entirely different entity does not make you guilty of their crimes. If you could swap bodies with somebody, that doesnt make them responsible for any crimes you commit after you swap back.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

You are, of course, utterly wrong about the so-called justice system in first world countries. People who actually have faith in police, judges and politicians are only slightly less retarded than those who believe in god, allah, whatever. But that is a discussion for another Thread, so I will restrict my comments to comic book matters.

We don't actually know how the fight would have ended without the lightning strike, as it happened right at the start of the fight. Before that, Stark was able to take Thor by surprised and carry him a considerable distance away from Loki. It should also be noted that he knocked Loki on his ass in Germany without the benefit of a power up. Loki was able to hang with Thor

Without Erskine inventing Super Soldier PED's, Rogers would never have served in the military. With his health problems he would have died young. And probably a virgin. Stark, on the other hand, didn't need any help to become a Super Hero. Badly wounded and kidnapped by terrorists, he built the first Iron Man suit,

"In a cave! From a box of scraps!"

Well you can’t say Iron Man wasn’t handed anything. He was born with genetic advantages in that he’s a genius and he was also handed a multi billion dollar international corporation that his father built. So in terms of being “given” the gifts he uses, Tony cant really criticize Cap.
They both were given an advantage. Caps came from a bottle and Tony’s came from his fathers dick and wallet.

They both have an abundance of heart, skill and power - just very different kinds.

Also - I wonder how the current nano-tech Iron Man would fare against Thor? Hulk buster beat Hulk and Hulk has done some very serious damage to Thor so it’s at least a fun fight between Thor and Stark.

I’d love to see Stark hang out with Giant Tyrion and forge some cool armor from that sun.

 

[Jim Cozad Jr.]

He also played a despicable guy very well in sicario

How was his character despicable in Sicario?

 

[KnightTemplar]

Well you can’t say Iron Man wasn’t handed anything. He was born with genetic advantages in that he’s a genius and he was also handed a multi billion dollar international corporation that his father built. So in terms of being “given” the gifts he uses, Tony cant really criticize Cap.
They both were given an advantage. Caps came from a bottle and Tony’s came from his fathers dick and wallet.

They both have an abundance of heart, skill and power - just very different kinds.

Also - I wonder how the current nano-tech Iron Man would fare against Thor? Hulk buster beat Hulk and Hulk has done some very serious damage to Thor so it’s at least a fun fight between Thor and Stark.

I’d love to see Stark hang out with Giant Tyrion and forge some cool armor from that sun.

I don't think any character in the MCU at the moment could stand and bang with Storm Breaker Thor with That Look in his eyes. He tore through Thanos' defences and gave the freaking Mad Titan himself a near death experience.

Styles make fights, though and Strange's mystic powers might be a challenge.

 

[Graves The Elder]

Bring me EVERYONE!
so awesome

 

[Fugazy]

Michael Keaton. He's done so many good guy roles and played evil in Pacific Heights to perfection.

Ya he was great in Spidey too.

 

[Uptown Swinger]

Joe Pesci

 

[minute bull]

How was his character despicable in Sicario?

HE WORKED FOR THE MAN.

 

[Uptown Swinger]

 

[Uptown Swinger]

 

[KnightTemplar]

You could have watched First Avenger while you were "sleeping" during this thread lol. But before this thread, you didn't watch it. And you probably did watch it sleeping considering you don't even get the importance of Captain America and the theme of ending cycles of violence that was shown in Civil War and carried into Black Panther. It's sad that you claim to know so much above First Avenger but don't anything about the movie. Maybe you jerked it too hard to Red Skull's scenes and went blind. You've abandoned your vendetta argument because it puts you at the level of thugs and gangbangers and someone from the movie that YOU actually consider to be a villain, Zemo. Stark and Zemo have the same motivations and I guess that was too much for your little thug mind to handle. Maybe you should discuss covering up pedophilia with the Pope considering how base you are. Concession accepted. Stark is the villain, accepted. Your loss of this argument, I accept! You came into this thread confused but now you leave with a little more knowledge. The knowledge that Cap is the hero and Stark is the villain.

As for these tack on arguments you like to have as a distraction; The army could have chosen any thug or vengeance idealizer to be Captain America. But Erskine knew they needed a good man. Stark was handed his company by his father, his money by his father, his education by his father, his very genes and intelligence come from his father. His father could have injected himself with the super soldier serum. But his father admired Steve Rogers. Because he's a good man. Howard Stark knew what was needed. And you don't just go around saying you're a good man like a bludgeon to embarrass others like saying you're a billionaire, playboy, philanthropist. Those qualities that you think are "good" can apply to a lot of villains too. They can build tech marvels, they can be geniuses, they can have money, they can be charming. You're describing Aldrich Killian from Iron Man 3. But are they good? That's why Cap had to eat that insult you like so much. Cap had to show his goodness and Cap has shown it in spades while Tony has withered because of his diminishing conscience. Stark was the type of person that Erskine was talking about when he said it's nothing if you have power but no compassion. If you try to murder for vendettas instead of try to rehabilitate. That's not the hero, that's the villain.

God, you're pathetic. You're attempting to lecture me on MCU characters when you can't even remember basic facts, plot points and character interactions. Such as who killed T'Chaka in Civil War. And I'm still waiting for you to quote the post which you claim proves I didn't even know there were Nazis in First Avenger. Guess I'd better not hold my breath waiting, huh?

If you don't at least try to kill the man you know murdered your mother, you're a coward. Pussies forgive. Real men avenge.

In the words of my former avatar,

 

[minute bull]

Heath ledger went from this



To this

But which is which?!

 

[KnightTemplar]

Except you made no attempt to restrict your comments at all.

Youre doing this all the time. Taking an argument and running entirely into a completely different direction. We started with Bucky not being responsible for his crimes due to brainwashing, and now in a couple of posts youre off and talking about the laws of first world countries and theology.



Since Iron Man was triple his normal power and he still needed intervention from cap, its pretty easy to argue that without said power up and without cap he wouldnt have had a chance. Even with the power up hes getting his suit crushed, and losing a headbutt contest.






What does any of this schizophrenic train of thought have to do with the price of tea in China?

A: No, Iron man does not beat Thor without some sort of help

B: Being brainwashed and having your actions controlled by an entirely different entity does not make you guilty of their crimes. If you could swap bodies with somebody, that doesnt make them responsible for any crimes you commit after you swap back.

No doubt the power up helped. Even before that, Stark put Thor on his arse twice; first when he Rugby tackled him away from Loki and then when he hit him with a Repulsor blast the first time. In any case, since when is using your opponent's strength and power against him a bad thing? It's a basic tenant of many Martial Arts.

Yeah, Point Break crushed part of his armour, which I agree was very impressive. But Stark was still standing and banging when Cap showed up. Cap's shield hit both of them; he was breaking up the fight, not rescuing Stark.

Again, Stark's response in Civil War is the only one any man could make in so awful a scenario,

"I don't care, he killed my Mom".

Objectively, you're correct in that Bucky isn't morally responsible, since he was brainwashed by Hydra. Tony, quite rightly, didn't give a shit. That doesn't make him the Villain. It makes him a human being. In his position, I'd have done exactly the same. Any man who wouldn't is either a coward or simply didn't love his mother in the first place.

 

[Cuffmeister]

Tom Hardy mad max/revenant or tdkr