A Sad Day In Court For Dogs And Their Owners

If a dog poses a threat to police, it should absolutely be shot...I don't see police officers going around shooting dogs just for barking if they post no threat or are restrained...what's sad is criminals using dogs to attack...
 
As I've read this thread I find it funny that you're the dude coming off as having no compassion.
I have compassion. It is generally reserved for people over other animals, though. Or at least I tend to care more for the lives of humans than animals. Maybe if it was the last of its breed, it's worth might be so much that it is worth human life to protect. But it ain't.
Reading this first bit again, it is probably too strong. If the police kill the dog without any reason, it is, in addition to the destruction of property, a crime of animal abuse. For instance, if, as another poster said, the cop shoots the dog when it is kenneled, that's obviously animal abuse, even if the dog is barking or growling. But if they have the right to be in the home, and they feel the dog is a threat to their safety, then they shouldn't think twice about neutralizing the threat in the most expedient way possible.

But so far, I've been talking about what we think the court said, or what yahoo says it said. Notice how yahoo links to something called "firstcoastnews" for it's report? Google doesn't want me to go there because they think it is a phishing site. So let's get it all straight from the horse's mouth:

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca6/16-1575/16-1575-2016-12-19.html



The problem here is that you're pitting a human life against a dog's, when that's not really the dispute. The issue is the wealth of discretion an officer has to shoot a dog for doing or not doing anything at all.

They're not exactly just shooting unchained, barking, and threatening rottweilers or dobermans. For some of these wannabe operator SWAT :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:s, their SOP has been to routinely shoot little terriers for just being present where bodily harm isn't even in the question.

Read the case. That's really not the issue. When there is a 100 lb and 50 lb pit bull in the house that barks at the window, lunges at the officer upon entry, and then both run down to the basement making it difficult to clear an enclosed area of a known gang drug house, we are going to be pretty deferential to the cops.
 
I have compassion. It is generally reserved for people over other animals, though. Or at least I tend to care more for the lives of humans than animals. Maybe if it was the last of its breed, it's worth might be so much that it is worth human life to protect. But it ain't.
Reading this first bit again, it is probably too strong. If the police kill the dog without any reason, it is, in addition to the destruction of property, a crime of animal abuse. For instance, if, as another poster said, the cop shoots the dog when it is kenneled, that's obviously animal abuse, even if the dog is barking or growling. But if they have the right to be in the home, and they feel the dog is a threat to their safety, then they shouldn't think twice about neutralizing the threat in the most expedient way possible.

But so far, I've been talking about what we think the court said, or what yahoo says it said. Notice how yahoo links to something called "firstcoastnews" for it's report? Google doesn't want me to go there because they think it is a phishing site. So let's get it all straight from the horse's mouth:

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca6/16-1575/16-1575-2016-12-19.html

Nice work finding the ruling. What did you gather from it?

Has a police officer every been killed by a dog at a suspect's residence? You talk like it's one life vs. another. In reality it's the cop possibly suffering a bite vs. the dog's life. You also talk like "man's best friend" is nothing more than property on par with something like an electric razor, and seem to disregard the extremely strong feelings people have for their animals. That's why I say your posts in the thread lack compassion.
 
Nice work finding the ruling. What did you gather from it?

Has a police officer every been killed by a dog at a suspect's residence? You talk like it's one life vs. another. In reality it's the cop possibly suffering a bite vs. the dog's life. You also talk like "man's best friend" is nothing more than property on par with something like an electric razor, and seem to disregard the extremely strong feelings people have for their animals. That's why I say your posts in the thread lack compassion.
I think it is a pretty good opinion. They recognize that "seizing" the dog is protected by the 4th amendment, and that the cops don't have qualified immunity on it because that's well established. So then the look at the reasonableness of the officers' actions based upon the facts they have. And they looked at it in the context of a motion for summary judgment, so they looked at it in the light most favorable to the Plaintiff. That's all correct.
The Plaintiff couldn't provide any evidence that the dogs weren't a threat. The best he could do was say that the dogs (a 97 pound pit and a 57 pound pit) weren't barking in the window before the officers entered. He also testified that the smaller dog never barked before in its life (seems fishy but you take it at face value for a motion for summary judgment). The officers were executing a warrant on a house and defendant with a known violent criminal history, gang ties, resisting arrest, and had just been released from prison a month ago after serving his full time. The officer said they thought that him serving his full sentence. They had actually detained him away from the house right before serving the warrant at the house, and learned right before executing the warrant that at least one more person and at least one dog were in the house. The officers testified that both dogs were barking at them from the window, continued to bark at them when they entered, and the large dog lunged at them, so they shot it. The wound wasn't fatal and both dogs ran into the basement. But, this being a drug raid on a gang house, they had to clear the basement. So they looked down there and the big dog was barking at them at the bottom the stairs. They didn't feel safe going down there considering it had lunged at them before, and they didn't know if anyone else was down there, so they shot the big dog again, killing it. They then went down the stairs, and the basement was full of stuff. The smaller dog was sitting there barking at them, and they couldn't tell if anyone was hiding down there. So they shot the smaller dog to keep it from attacking and creating chaos, it started running towards an officer and he shot it as well. It went behind the furnace, at which point it was bleeding badly and suffering, so the cops took aim and delivered a fatal shot to end its suffering.

There's no evidence to the contrary on any of the above, so it is unrebutted fact. The closest question is definitely the first shot on the second dog. The court looked at other cases where cops have gotten in trouble for shooting dogs, including a case where they shot guard dogs at a Hell's Angels clubhouse. In that case, they knew or should have known the dogs were there, and evidence was put on that they could have avoided shooting the dogs. In this one, the cops didn't know there were dogs there beforehand so they couldn't have taken more care, and once they were in a small basement full of junk in gang house with one escape route with a barking 57 pound pitbull and who knows what else, it was reasonable that they feared the dog represented a threat of imminent bodily harm. I think it was a good decision.

I am not aware of a cop being killed by a dog. I am aware of people being killed by dogs. Legally, "man's best friend" is nothing more than property to the owner. Obviously, they are living beings that should be free from being treated with cruelty or neglect, but they are not people no matter how much you care for them.

If this owner cared for his pitbulls, he ought not to put them in that situation. When you move you and your dogs into a house with a violent ex-felon gang member who is selling large amounts of cocaine and heroin, you should consider that the house might be raided, and that the dogs might be considered a threat unless they are completely restrained. If you don't want your 97 pound pit to get shot, don't put it in charge of security at a drug house run by gangs.
 
I think it is a pretty good opinion. They recognize that "seizing" the dog is protected by the 4th amendment, and that the cops don't have qualified immunity on it because that's well established. So then the look at the reasonableness of the officers' actions based upon the facts they have. And they looked at it in the context of a motion for summary judgment, so they looked at it in the light most favorable to the Plaintiff. That's all correct.
The Plaintiff couldn't provide any evidence that the dogs weren't a threat. The best he could do was say that the dogs (a 97 pound pit and a 57 pound pit) weren't barking in the window before the officers entered. He also testified that the smaller dog never barked before in its life (seems fishy but you take it at face value for a motion for summary judgment). The officers were executing a warrant on a house and defendant with a known violent criminal history, gang ties, resisting arrest, and had just been released from prison a month ago after serving his full time. The officer said they thought that him serving his full sentence. They had actually detained him away from the house right before serving the warrant at the house, and learned right before executing the warrant that at least one more person and at least one dog were in the house. The officers testified that both dogs were barking at them from the window, continued to bark at them when they entered, and the large dog lunged at them, so they shot it. The wound wasn't fatal and both dogs ran into the basement. But, this being a drug raid on a gang house, they had to clear the basement. So they looked down there and the big dog was barking at them at the bottom the stairs. They didn't feel safe going down there considering it had lunged at them before, and they didn't know if anyone else was down there, so they shot the big dog again, killing it. They then went down the stairs, and the basement was full of stuff. The smaller dog was sitting there barking at them, and they couldn't tell if anyone was hiding down there. So they shot the smaller dog to keep it from attacking and creating chaos, it started running towards an officer and he shot it as well. It went behind the furnace, at which point it was bleeding badly and suffering, so the cops took aim and delivered a fatal shot to end its suffering.

There's no evidence to the contrary on any of the above, so it is unrebutted fact. The closest question is definitely the first shot on the second dog. The court looked at other cases where cops have gotten in trouble for shooting dogs, including a case where they shot guard dogs at a Hell's Angels clubhouse. In that case, they knew or should have known the dogs were there, and evidence was put on that they could have avoided shooting the dogs. In this one, the cops didn't know there were dogs there beforehand so they couldn't have taken more care, and once they were in a small basement full of junk in gang house with one escape route with a barking 57 pound pitbull and who knows what else, it was reasonable that they feared the dog represented a threat of imminent bodily harm. I think it was a good decision.

I am not aware of a cop being killed by a dog. I am aware of people being killed by dogs. Legally, "man's best friend" is nothing more than property to the owner. Obviously, they are living beings that should be free from being treated with cruelty or neglect, but they are not people no matter how much you care for them.

If this owner cared for his pitbulls, he ought not to put them in that situation. When you move you and your dogs into a house with a violent ex-felon gang member who is selling large amounts of cocaine and heroin, you should consider that the house might be raided, and that the dogs might be considered a threat unless they are completely restrained. If you don't want your 97 pound pit to get shot, don't put it in charge of security at a drug house run by gangs.

Thanks for the summary. Still sounds like the court said it's ok to shoot a dog for simply barking (as that somehow constitutes a threat).

Not sure who was equating dogs with people. I sure wasn't.
 
Thanks for the summary. Still sounds like the court said it's ok to shoot a dog for simply barking (as that somehow constitutes a threat).

Not sure who was equating dogs with people. I sure wasn't.
They didn't. It's a totality of the circumstances test. The totality test is the most fact-dependent test of them all, and doesn't make much for president except for a guidepost. They said, quite rightly, that it is reasonable for a police officer to seize a dog (aka shoot it) when they have a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm. . And given the totality of the circumstances, not just taht teh dog was barking but also everything else abou the situation, the cops in this case had reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm. It definitely doesn't foreclose someone from seeking to protect their 4th amendment right to not have their dog shot unreasonably in the future, even if the dog is barking. But it does mean that 57 pound pitbull dogs barking in the messy basement of gang houses that the cops are trying to clear in furtherance of a validly executed warrant are gonna be hard cases to win without some other facts that changes the totality of the circumstances.
 
They didn't. It's a totality of the circumstances test. The totality test is the most fact-dependent test of them all, and doesn't make much for president except for a guidepost. They said, quite rightly, that it is reasonable for a police officer to seize a dog (aka shoot it) when they have a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm. . And given the totality of the circumstances, not just taht teh dog was barking but also everything else abou the situation, the cops in this case had reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm. It definitely doesn't foreclose someone from seeking to protect their 4th amendment right to not have their dog shot unreasonably in the future, even if the dog is barking. But it does mean that 57 pound pitbull dogs barking in the messy basement of gang houses that the cops are trying to clear in furtherance of a validly executed warrant are gonna be hard cases to win without some other facts that changes the totality of the circumstances.

Isn't it the usual circumstance that the cops are where they are for a reason (in this case the warrant)? "Seize" is a poor euphemism for "destroy". Nothing reasonable about believing a barking dog will kill you if you don't shoot it (at least based on the times I've been barked at vs. bit). The messy basement attests more to fear of people than the dogs. It's a shame that expedience seems to win the day at the expense of our most faithful companions.

Gotta sacrifice 2nd & 5th Amendment protections plus the family dog in order to win that drug war. Any day now decent society will prevail. :D
 
Sucks, but the police officer is obviously the greater priority here. I'm sure this thread is full of people just saying "Just taze the dog! Shoot it in the kneecaps! Put it in a sleeper hold!" though. Try having to go into a hostile, unsecured household with a big dog barking threateningly a few feet away from you then talk to us.
 
Isn't it the usual circumstance that the cops are where they are for a reason (in this case the warrant)? "Seize" is a poor euphemism for "destroy". Nothing reasonable about believing a barking dog will kill you if you don't shoot it (at least based on the times I've been barked at vs. bit). The messy basement attests more to fear of people than the dogs. It's a shame that expedience seems to win the day at the expense of our most faithful companions.

Gotta sacrifice 2nd & 5th Amendment protections plus the family dog in order to win that drug war. Any day now decent society will prevail. :D
To seize property encompasses destroying it. It means to deprive the owner of possession, by whatever means.

Have you ever seen a dog maul someone or at least the aftermath? Unless you know the dog, you should never assume it is friendly.
 
To seize property encompasses destroying it. It means to deprive the owner of possession, by whatever means.

Have you ever seen a dog maul someone or at least the aftermath? Unless you know the dog, you should never assume it is friendly.

What's the word that indicates there's a possibility of getting one's property back because it was taken/controlled rather than destroyed? Looks to me that seize would be the one. http://legaldictionary.lawin.org/seize/

Cops executing a warrant aren't "someone". They're armed professionals who should be trained to deal with contingencies in the situations they create by entering private property. I find it unfortunate that they're being trained/authorized to dispatch family pets in absence of any actual attempt by said pets to attack (i.e. barking and nothing more).

If you think killing the dog preemptively is better than an officer possibly suffering even a scratch then we have different values on the matter.
 
What's the word that indicates there's a possibility of getting one's property back because it was taken/controlled rather than destroyed? Looks to me that seize would be the one. http://legaldictionary.lawin.org/seize/

Cops executing a warrant aren't "someone". They're armed professionals who should be trained to deal with contingencies in the situations they create by entering private property. I find it unfortunate that they're being trained/authorized to dispatch family pets in absence of any actual attempt by said pets to attack (i.e. barking and nothing more).

If you think killing the dog preemptively is better than an officer possibly suffering even a scratch then we have different values on the matter.
Are you arguing that the term "seizure" in the 4th amendment doesn't include killing a pet dog? If so, and you are right, then there is no recourse for the owner whatsoever no matter the circumstances. You should think through the result of your argument. You obviously want the dog to be protected by the law. But if killing it isn't a seizure of property, then it is not protected by the law.

Take the dog out of it for a second, since that obviously makes you more emotional than other things. If the cops take your car, that's a seizure, correct? The Constitution protects seizures, not destruction. So if you are right, then if a cop comes and impounds your car unreasonably, you have a constitutional tort to seek redress of the harm, but if the cops just blow it up on the side of the road, you don't. Does that seem right, or does that seem absurd?

Whatever seize means to you, in the 4th amendment prohibition against unreasonable search and seizures, it definitely includes capping the dog.
 
If a dog poses a threat to police, it should absolutely be shot...I don't see police officers going around shooting dogs just for barking if they post no threat or are restrained...what's sad is criminals using dogs to attack...
Officers have testified under oath that non-aggressive dogs were killed while trying to flee. There are also documented cases where dogs were killed while behind cages or fences or in crates.
 
Are you arguing that the term "seizure" in the 4th amendment doesn't include killing a pet dog? If so, and you are right, then there is no recourse for the owner whatsoever no matter the circumstances. You should think through the result of your argument. You obviously want the dog to be protected by the law. But if killing it isn't a seizure of property, then it is not protected by the law.

Take the dog out of it for a second, since that obviously makes you more emotional than other things. If the cops take your car, that's a seizure, correct? The Constitution protects seizures, not destruction. So if you are right, then if a cop comes and impounds your car unreasonably, you have a constitutional tort to seek redress of the harm, but if the cops just blow it up on the side of the road, you don't. Does that seem right, or does that seem absurd?

Whatever seize means to you, in the 4th amendment prohibition against unreasonable search and seizures, it definitely includes capping the dog.

I'm showing that the term "seize" is conceptually different than destroy. Killing the dog doesn't resemble any definition of the word I can find so I asked you to provide one (which you didn't). And why does the Constitution have to be involved for there to be recourse against government destruction of private property? And if it does, well...there's that pesky 9th Amendment.

Again, 9th Amendment. I think Americans believe they have a right to be free of the government destroying their property. Certainly if the government can't just seize it then neither can they just up and destroy it. As for something enumerated, seems the 5th is more applicable when it comes to destruction.

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

You can provide a court ruling showing this rationalization/extended defintion (although you didn't) and that still doesn't make seize equal destroy anymore than Comey's rationalization makes extreme carelessness substantially different than gross negligence. Not sure why it's so important to you to define seize in this manner.
 
Officers have testified under oath that non-aggressive dogs were killed while trying to flee. There are also documented cases where dogs were killed while behind cages or fences or in crates.

Well that shouldn't happen...and something should happen to those cops...if they'll do stuff like shoot animals that don't pose a threat, they'll probably pull the same stuff with humans...
 
My dog is only 35 pounds and no threat to any grown man but she barks when strangers come into the house, under these rules she would be killed.
 
If a police officer, or anyone for that matter, kills my dog, I will do everything in my power to kill them.

I don't care what your identification says; You do not get to walk on to my property and decide that my dog is going to die because he barks at a fucking stranger.
 
I'm showing that the term "seize" is conceptually different than destroy. Killing the dog doesn't resemble any definition of the word I can find so I asked you to provide one (which you didn't). And why does the Constitution have to be involved for there to be recourse against government destruction of private property? And if it does, well...there's that pesky 9th Amendment.

Again, 9th Amendment. I think Americans believe they have a right to be free of the government destroying their property. Certainly if the government can't just seize it then neither can they just up and destroy it. As for something enumerated, seems the 5th is more applicable when it comes to destruction.



You can provide a court ruling showing this rationalization/extended defintion (although you didn't) and that still doesn't make seize equal destroy anymore than Comey's rationalization makes extreme carelessness substantially different than gross negligence. Not sure why it's so important to you to define seize in this manner.
You should read the actual case, then. There, they clearly define the killing of the dog as a seizure, and cite multiple cases for it. I go through and explain the opinion to you. It contains all this info. And you quibble about words you don't understand and then say I am not providing court cases. I did. Quit being lazy.
Here is Cornell U's legal institute defining "seizure" "A seizure of property, within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, occurs when there is some meaningful interference with an individual’s possessory interests in the property."
That's a good definition. Pretty fucking simple. If you think the 4th amendment doesn't prevent the police from destroying your property, then you are just wrong, no if's ands or buts. You don't have to look anywhere else for it in the Constitution such as the 9th.

That you would even ask why you need the Constitution to be involved in seeking recourse against the federal government for the destruction of private property shows that you don't really get it, and should be asking questions instead of arguing with me. It's not even debatable.


The 9th Amendment doesn't grant rights, it merely recognizes the existence of unenumerated rights. And what those rights are is not based on what you believe them to be. As a practical matter, if you are looking for protection from the 9th, you are screwed.

The 5th, or 14th, since this was a state actor and not the federal government, would be a possible place to get such a right if it weren't given more explicitly in the 4th. The problem with looking for it there is determining the amount of process you are due would be even squishier than determining what is reasonable under the 4th. Take this example, if you point a gun at a cop, are you due a trial before he takes your life? Of course not. Same would go with a dog. You are due little to no process beyond the grant of the search warrant when a cop executes a warrant like that.
 
Back
Top