A Divided Species is a Weaker Species

[Diogenes of Sinope]

I've got my ideas about what a utopian future might look like.

To my mind it requires at least the majority of people be fed, housed and educated without being saddled with debt.

Once we get people educated, shit will really take off. Imagine, so many more people able to contribute so much more than flipping burgers. People from poor backgrounds, who'd not have risen above their station in life, are now useful citizens with agency and hope for creating better things for their children and society.

I won't live to see it but many will be born into such a world.

we will never achieve Utopia. its not in our programming. we crazy conflict. its in our DNA. to constantly work towards a never ending perfection.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

we will never achieve Utopia. its not in our programming. we crazy conflict. its in our DNA. to constantly work towards a never ending perfection.

A nested chain of assumptions is not a good foundation for any argument.

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

A nested chain of assumptions is not a good foundation for any argument.

not a chain of assumption, its a fact; we crave conflict. Id post a source, but we live in an time where you people will ignore scientific evidence because your cognitive dissonance is so strong. Also, you're on a computer and can use google yourself

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I've got my ideas about what a utopian future might look like.

To my mind it requires at least the majority of people be fed, housed and educated without being saddled with debt.

Once we get people educated, shit will really take off. Imagine, so many more people able to contribute so much more than flipping burgers. People from poor backgrounds, who'd not have risen above their station in life, are now useful citizens with agency and hope for creating better things for their children and society.

I won't live to see it but many will be born into such a world.

Monica.

That's actually the long-term promise and premise behind anarchism. Once you remove the burden of wage slavery, people will be free to focus on creative work, which will provide huge advancements for everyone. Way too much human intelligence has been wasted through poverty, focusing on accumulating wealth, or defending nation-states.

Since I never pass up a chance to share Chomsky. Here he is explaining how such a society would exist. Amazingly insightful.

 

[Teppodama]

I've got my ideas about what a utopian future might look like.

To my mind it requires at least the majority of people be fed, housed and educated without being saddled with debt.

Once we get people educated, shit will really take off. Imagine, so many more people able to contribute so much more than flipping burgers. People from poor backgrounds, who'd not have risen above their station in life, are now useful citizens with agency and hope for creating better things for their children and society.

I won't live to see it but many will be born into such a world.

No, they will not. It's a nice dream I'll agree but just a dream and one the human race will never realize. We have more in common with Cape Buffalo in that we are an aggressive herd species than we do with the colony mind of the bee. Its in our very genes and if you monkey around with that make us a more biddable compliant herd animal than we really won't be humans anymore now will we.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

No, they will not. It's a nice dream I'll agree but just a dream and one the human race will never realize. We have more in common with Cape Buffalo in that we are an aggressive herd species than we do with the colony mind of the bee. Its in our very genes and if you monkey around with that make us a more biddable compliant herd animal than we really won't be humans anymore now will we.

Assumptions. Asserting something is in our genetic makeup doesn't make it so. It also shortchanges humanity's ability to rise above baser instincts, which we have done by forming societies for thousands of years.

If it weren't possible we'd still be living in tribal fashion.

 

[MicroBrew]

With the small difference that Europeans (Iberians to be more exact, the English/Dutch/French practiced ethnic cleansing) actually ruled over Amerindians and entered their society in the upper strata. Muslims, Africans, and Latinos aren't ruling over Westerners nowadays. In fact, they're entering Western society in the lower strata.

So these tactics are actually polar opposites. A lot easier to achieve "cultural genocide" when you come in as the governors, generals, merchants, farm/mine owners etc., than when you come in as dishwashers, nannies, landscapers.

The Dutch, English and French also practiced cultural genocide (though not to the degree of the Spanish & Portuguese ) , along with ethnic cleansing and genocide. These Euros did impos their religion in some of the places they conquered. Some of the colonial British immigrants tried to coerce the Natives to assimilate , or at the very least abandon their heritage, by converting them to Christianity. The descendants of the Brits forcefully tried to destroy native culture and community in Canada and Australia by forcefully separating native children from their community , putting them in boarding schools or giving them to Whites to raise in Anglo culture. The Brits are also responsible for a famine that killed millions in West Bengal.

Ethnic cleansing is many times just slow motion genocide, because people tend to fight back when they are being kicked off their land, leading to their slaughter. So you can slaughter an entire people and try to downplay the seriousness of the crime by claiming it was just ethnic cleansing. Natives fighting against the British to remain on their land were killed.

 

[Teppodama]

Assumptions. Asserting something is in our genetic makeup doesn't make it so. It also shortchanges humanity's ability to rise above baser instincts, which we have done by forming societies for thousands of years.

If it weren't possible we'd still be living in tribal fashion.

We ARE living in tribal fashion, the tribes are just bigger. We group ourselves on increasingly granular levels. Economically, socially, intellectually, philosophically, religiously, nationally, racially and on and on and on an on. You've obviously good a generous heart and outlook on your fellow man OP but you're naive.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

We ARE living in tribal fashion, the tribes are just bigger.

That's an oversimplification convenient to the argument.

We group ourselves on increasingly granular levels. Economically, socially, intellectually, philosophically, religiously, nationally, racially and on and on and on an on. You've obviously good a generous heart and outlook on your fellow man OP but you're naive.

Hardly. I understand the realities; you're carving the nuances away and those are the underpinnings of the majority of our social constructs, which tends to broaden and become inclusive. Obviously this doesn't apply to actually stratified societies but that's a given.

I just have an outlook that takes into account the hurdles we've already overcome. We've sent men to the Moon, we can get things done. We're intellectually capable and the future looks bright. Eventually those who can't or won't adjust marginalize themselves and by their very posture are too conservative to progress.

 

[Teppodama]

That's an oversimplification convenient to the argument.


Hardly. I understand the realities; you're carving the nuances away and those are the underpinnings of the majority of our social constructs, which tends to broaden and become inclusive. Obviously this doesn't apply to actually stratified societies but that's a given.

I just have an outlook that takes into account the hurdles we've already overcome. We've sent men to the Moon, we can get things done. We're intellectually capable and the future looks bright. Eventually those who can't or won't adjust marginalize themselves and by their very posture are too conservative to progress.

While we have been able to achieve we are also always just one catastrophe, whether macro or micro, away from the "laws of the jungle". We see that around us all the time. We also see examples of grace which keeps me from being totally pessimistic on about the human species but I truly don't believe that is our default. The fact that we learn to overcome those base impulses shows us what our true basic default it, we simply rise above it as our affluence and connections allow.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

While we have been able to achieve we are also always just one catastrophe, whether macro or micro, away from the "laws of the jungle". We see that around us all the time. We also see examples of grace which keeps me from being totally pessimistic on about the human species but I truly don't believe that is our default. The fact that we learn to overcome those base impulses shows us what our true basic default it, we simply rise above it as our affluence and connections allow.

I suppose you're the pessimist to my optimist, the cynic, the yin to my yang, the lame to my awesome.

I can understand why you see it that way but trust me, I'm so fucking cool

 

[SaiWa]

I've got my ideas about what a utopian future might look like.

To my mind it requires at least the majority of people be fed, housed and educated without being saddled with debt.

Once we get people educated, shit will really take off. Imagine, so many more people able to contribute so much more than flipping burgers. People from poor backgrounds, who'd not have risen above their station in life, are now useful citizens with agency and hope for creating better things for their children and society.

I won't live to see it but many will be born into such a world.

That's some star trek society shit you talking about homey... I like u!

 

[Possum Jenkins]

The Dutch, English and French also practiced cultural genocide (though not to the degree of the Spanish & Portuguese ) , along with ethnic cleansing and genocide. These Euros did impos their religion in some of the places they conquered. Some of the colonial British immigrants tried to coerce the Natives to assimilate , or at the very least abandon their heritage, by converting them to Christianity. The descendants of the Brits forcefully tried to destroy native culture and community in Canada and Australia by forcefully separating native children from their community , putting them in boarding schools or giving them to Whites to raise in Anglo culture. The Brits are also responsible for a famine that killed millions in West Bengal.

Ethnic cleansing is many times just slow motion genocide, because people tend to fight back when they are being kicked off their land, leading to their slaughter. So you can slaughter an entire people and try to downplay the seriousness of the crime by claiming it was just ethnic cleansing. Natives fighting against the British to remain on their land were killed.

Yes well the larger point of my post was to point out that current immigration into Europe and North America doesn't even begin to halfway compare with European colonization of the rest of the world where a lovely mix of genocide and ethnic cleansing took place.

Only the outrageously dishonest or hopelessly ignorant can believe this.

 

[Soul Crusher]

Same.

We've already made great moral strides in accepting human rights and equality as the norm, in theory. Gotta remember, for 99.99% of human history, we couldn't even do that. We had legalized, accepted slavery until not too long ago.

The next step is to increase democracy in individual countries, and then extend it to the whole world.

Lol at thinking white countries are like the rest of the world.

 

[Soul Crusher]

Cant believe progressives think the rest of the world is going to accept progressive liberalism.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Lol at thinking white countries are like the rest of the world.

Cant believe progressives think the rest of the world is going to accept progressive liberalism.

Soooooooul Crushing!

 

[Soul Crusher]

Soooooooul Crushing!

Sorry I have a bad habit of bursting progressive bubbles

 

[MicroBrew]

Yes well the larger point of my post was to point out that current immigration into Europe and North America doesn't even begin to halfway compare with European colonization of the rest of the world where a lovely mix of genocide and ethnic cleansing took place.

Only the outrageously dishonest or hopelessly ignorant can believe this.

I agree.

 

[Kframe]

Assumptions. Asserting something is in our genetic makeup doesn't make it so. It also shortchanges humanity's ability to rise above baser instincts, which we have done by forming societies for thousands of years.

If it weren't possible we'd still be living in tribal fashion.

A tribe is still a society, if a small one.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

A tribe is still a society, if a small one.

But it's an appropriate usage, whereas.