A bloody end to a multicultural fairy-tale: Balkan wars

[bad mojo]

Ok, Sherbros. In another thread concerning the future of Europe, I've posted some some opinions based on personal experiences of living through the collapse of Yugoslavia, or "mini-EU" as it was often called before in ended in civil and religious wars. @Greoric and @sniper took some interest in my experiences and suggested a new thread.

I'm open for any political, historic and real-life military questions you may have, and will try to stay as objective as possible.

I'll use a part of my post from that thread to start:

Majority of people don't know, there was a huge muslim immigration after the WW2. In 70s, Yugoslav government imposed state policy called "Brotherhood and Unity". It is EXACTLY the same thing as today's "diversity". I'm Serbian, Orthodox Christian. My parents had to baptize me in secret, because being Christian was considered backwards and nationalistic. At the same time, thousands upon thousands of muslims from Albania were allowed to enter southern province of Serbia, Kosovo. They were given free housing, welfare, payed no taxes. As the years went by, mosques started popping everywhere. Crime soared. Serbs started leaving Kosovo for northern parts of Serbia.

During the 80s, "no go zones" started forming. You couldn't speak Serbian there. Cars would be set on fire, churches also. Police were attacked constantly. More Serbs fled. In 90s, Yugoslavia fell apart. Serbia was helping Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia and was unable to deal with muslim threat in Kosovo. By 1998, muslims from all over middle-east arrived there and Milošević was forced to take action. NATO bombings started and
the rest is well known.

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

What you are describimg could be the future of Europe.
Let's learn from it and work against it.
Ensuring secularism and democracy.

 

[JDragon]

Milošević was forced to take action.

...and massacre 8000 boys and men in Srebrenica. Good times.

 

[Prutfis]

Yeah Milosevic was just an innocent who had his hand forced. Mass murder and genocide were clearly his only options

 

[bad mojo]

...and massacre 8000 boys and men in Srebrenica. Good times.

Yes. Milošević had nothing to do with it, tough. No male older than 14 was spared. I didn't start this thread to apologize for anything, feel free to ask whatever you'd like to know and I'll answer it as honest as I can.

 

[Ice That Jaw]

It would have really sucked to be a civilian anywhere near either armies' path during the war. Both sides did some Vietnam style raping and beating.

 

[snakedafunky]

I am just worried because Europe was so peaceful before Globalism.
Especially the Balkans are a historical very peaceful region its also called Switzerland of the east.

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

I can recognise the the inflow of muslims here happening too.
They're not exactly calling their first borns after our King.

Here there was already an incident where a girl in a headscarf
provoked a girl in a bikini lying in a park, saying she should cover up.

Or remarks from my Maroccan collegue.
Look at that short skirt, no wonder if she gets raped.

 

[TheGreatA]

I am just worried because Europe was so peaceful before Globalism.
Especially the Balkans are a historical very peaceful region its also called Switzerland of the east.

It was pretty peaceful from 1945 onwards when sovereign nations were still allowed to remain sovereign.

Germans trying to impose their world order on the rest of Europeans, is when the fighting usually starts.

 

[snakedafunky]

Well the Balkans also after 1945 always had a lot of tensions. The best thing for them would be incorporated into the EU.
So they would experience the Eastern Europe style prosperity that should help a lot.

They did had a lot of wars last century. The two Balkan wars, WW1 and Yugoslavian wars all had its origin in the Balkan.
I guess some of them can be considered a fight against empires I think the first Balkan wars was against the Turks?
I mean the Balkans have been know for centuries to be the death of many large Armies. They were also able to hold back the Italians in WW2.
Until the Wehrmacht paid them a visits in absolutely crushed them. Since then they haven't really won anything.
I guess they couldn't handle such a devastating loss.

 

[JDragon]

Yes. Milošević had nothing to do with it, tough. No male older than 14 was spared. I didn't start this thread to apologize for anything, feel free to ask whatever you'd like to know and I'll answer it as honest as I can.

Milosevic knew what was going on, though:

http://www.icty.org/en/content/general-wesley-clark

But I agree that my response was poorly worded as there is no evidence that Milosevic is culpable the same way as Mladic (with regard to Srebrenica, at least).

 

[bad mojo]

Well the Balkans also after 1945 always had a lot of tensions. The best thing for them would be incorporated into the EU.
So they would experience the Eastern Europe style prosperity that should help a lot.

They did had a lot of wars last century. The two Balkan wars, WW1 and Yugoslavian wars all had its origin in the Balkan.
I guess some of them can be considered a fight against empires I think the first Balkan wars was against the Turks?
I mean the Balkans have been know for centuries to be the death of many large Armies. They were also able to hold back the Italians in WW2.
Until the Wehrmacht paid them a visits in absolutely crushed them. Since then they haven't really won anything.
I guess they couldn't handle such a devastating loss.

Basically, in Churchill's words, "one damn thing after another". 20th century was absolutely horrific for Balkans and Europe in general.

 

[bad mojo]

Milosevic knew what was going on, though:

http://www.icty.org/en/content/general-wesley-clark

But I agree that my response was poorly worded as there is no evidence that Milosevic is culpable the same way as Mladic (with regard to Srebrenica, at least).

Mladić actually tried to stop the killings, but his head would roll also. Killings in Srebrenica were vengeance for what muslims from Srebrenica did on Christmas eve 1993, when they left "military free" city and massacred civilians. There was no way to stop Serbian soldiers from doing what they did, Mladić managed to get the women and young kids out alive.

 

[snakedafunky]

Basically, in Churchill's words, "one damn thing after another". 20th century was absolutely horrific for Balkans and Europe in general.

Yeah my main point was that there has always been a lot of tensions between the different countries.
I mean there are still issues on how Macedonia should call itself in 2018.
Now introducing Muslim into that environment was not beneficial.
But I don't think that can be applied to the rest of Europe the same way.

 

[TheGreatA]

Well the Balkans also after 1945 always had a lot of tensions. The best thing for them would be incorporated into the EU.
So they would experience the Eastern Europe style prosperity that should help a lot.

They did had a lot of wars last century. The two Balkan wars, WW1 and Yugoslavian wars all had its origin in the Balkan.
I guess some of them can be considered a fight against empires I think the first Balkan wars was against the Turks?
I mean the Balkans have been know for centuries to be the death of many large Armies. They were also able to hold back the Italians in WW2.
Until the Wehrmacht paid them a visits in absolutely crushed them. Since then they haven't really won anything.
I guess they couldn't handle such a devastating loss.

Well, they have won their own nations now. A significantly improved development from about a hundred years ago.

Not surprising that they aren't necessarily first in line to be "incorporated" to another federation. Didn't work so well in the past.

The Ottoman Empire, The Russian Empire, The Austro-Hungarian Empire, Nazi Germany, USSR, Yugoslavia, etc.

How many times does a concept need to fail before people will learn?

 

[bad mojo]

Yeah my main point was that there has always been a lot of tensions between the different countries.
I mean there are still issues on how Macedonia should call itself in 2018.
Now introducing Muslim into that environment was not beneficial.
But I don't think that can be applied to the rest of Europe the same way.

Macedonia took a lot of muslim immigrants while still being a part of Yugoslavia. They've basically took over by now, it's almost 50/50 now. Dire straits.

 

[Nooob]

You can’t compare the Balkans to Western Europe. Everyone in the Balkans were tribalistic to the core, hated each other for over 900 years so wars were always inevitable for these people who still in this day don’t recognize each other and still reclaim each other’s lands.

 

[44nutman]

Are there any statues left of Tito. Tito kept Yugoslavians from killing each other.

 

[Greoric]

@bad mojo If you could please describe the fighting for us. What was that experience like for you. Were there clearly defined front lines or was this a personal war, kind of thing. I want to get out of the specific politics of who did what (to avoid that silly debate), as much as getting your on the ground personal experience. As in what is the street view of things.

 

[Greoric]

You can’t compare the Balkans to Western Europe. Everyone in the Balkans hated each other for over 900 years so wars were always inevitable for these people who still in this day don’t recognize each other and still reclaim each other’s lands.

Cultures taking residence in Western Europe now have hated western values for over 900 years too.