Score cards in the Guida vs. Koch fight

[WalkenWouldOwn]

Clay Guida def. Erik Koch via Unanimous Decision (30-27, 29-26, 29-28)


I've been hearing a lot about the new scoring, and how there are supposed to be more 10-8 rounds. Did anybody inform these judges? Or do the rules not apply in Oklahoma?

That was a 30-25 scorecard under ANY MMA rules IMO. Koch had absolutely no offense in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and was completely dominated by any criteria.

One judge had it 29-28. I just find that absolutely absurd. Thoughts?

Spoiler

 

[Lavitz]

The 29-28 judge was distracted by Koch's fucked up haircut. But I honestly don't know.

One judge later in the night had a draw for BJ vs Siver. WTF?

 

[SeattleFightFan]

OTOH, there have been more 10-8's this year than ever before.

so just to put your complaint into perspective, the change did something, but not enough (in your opinion), and most likely not across the board - e.g. not every judge scores 10-8's as often as you prefer (not surprising, since scoring is still - by design - systemically subjective.)

correct?

 

[sonhow]

I think they said new rules were NOT applied by Oklahoma.
Guida should have still had 10-8's in there.

 

[WalkenWouldOwn]

The 29-28 judge was distracted by Koch's fucked up haircut. But I honestly don't know.

One judge later in the night had a draw for BJ vs Siver. WTF?

Yeah even as a Penn fan, that fight should have been 29 - 27 Siver. I mean the stuff shouldn't be SO subjective. First round was a clear 10-9 Siver. 2nd was a clear 10-9 Penn. 3rd was a clear 10-8 for Siver.

I am a biased Penn fan and I could see that. MMA judging sucks, it's not a new concept but I did think having more 10-8 rounds could potentially help a bit, even if it lead to more draws too.

But the Guida fight... 29-28.....


You aren't kidding about dat hair BTW. Yikes.

 

[WalkenWouldOwn]

OTOH, there have been more 10-8's this year than ever before.

so just to put your complaint into perspective, the change did something, but not enough (in your opinion), and most likely not across the board - e.g. not every judge scores 10-8's as often as you prefer (not surprising, since scoring is still - by design - systemically subjective.)

correct?

Sure. That's why part of the post is a question, not just a complaint. I don't know if the scoring applies to every UFC card or what. And obviously there are still going to be stupid, incompetent judges. The score was baffling to me.

 

[Caligulasfury]

How is Erik Koch still in the UFC? Hes garbage.

 

[wartor]

The "more 10-8" rounds is part of the new training. If a judge has no reason to re-certify he will still use the old system.

 

[Hittman247]

The 29-28 judge was distracted by Koch's fucked up haircut. But I honestly don't know.

One judge later in the night had a draw for BJ vs Siver. WTF?

Yeah a draw on BJ vs Siver? That guy should never judge again.

 

[myjohnson9]

Clay Guida def. Erik Koch via Unanimous Decision (30-27, 29-26, 29-28)


I've been hearing a lot about the new scoring, and how there are supposed to be more 10-8 rounds. Did anybody inform these judges? Or do the rules not apply in Oklahoma?

That was a 30-25 scorecard under ANY MMA rules IMO. Koch had absolutely no offense in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and was completely dominated by any criteria.

One judge had it 29-28. I just find that absolutely absurd. Thoughts?

Spoiler

Oklahoma has not adapted the new rules and scoring criteria, they said it at the beginning of the broadcast

 

[christer]

I noticed the terrible score card as well. Very weird, they never learn it seems.
I was a bit sad about Koch only being defensive and never trying to get out and fight also. Sometimes Guida has gotten a bad rep for decisioning people and in this case it wasn't his fault. He really went for it and even though it wasn't a blood bath Koch did nothing and was completely owned.

Did you notice how one ref in the BJ Penn - Siver fight had it a draw? Imagine being that guy. Weird how they have someone retarded scoring fights. I doubt anyone care enough about that fight to try to fix it plus it would have failed anyway so... must have been a truly retarded person.

BJ Penn gets in one good shot in round 2 and thats 10-8. Siver almost stops BJ and BJ only walks backwards for half the round obviously hurt and tired, even getting a warning from the ref he's close to stopping it. Ah, that must be a 10-9 round.
Sorry, know your thread wasn't about that fight but it annoyed me even more for some reason

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Yeah even as a Penn fan, that fight should have been 29 - 27 Siver. I mean the stuff shouldn't be SO subjective. First round was a clear 10-9 Siver. 2nd was a clear 10-9 Penn. 3rd was a clear 10-8 for Siver.

I am a biased Penn fan and I could see that. MMA judging sucks, it's not a new concept but I did think having more 10-8 rounds could potentially help a bit, even if it lead to more draws too.

But the Guida fight... 29-28.....


You aren't kidding about dat hair BTW. Yikes.

no worse than the first BJ Edgar fight though, eh?

but yes, it's quite clear that some judges are taking the instructions for more liberal 10-8's more than others.

the fact is, judges scores have always varied widely. they will even more (not less) now that they've been given more leeway. i mean, thinking about it again, is it really that reasonable to expect the scoring to become more similar now that they have been allowed more range with their subjectivity than they used to?

you know what i look forward to? the first time one judge scores a round 10-9 for fighter A and another judge scores it 10-8 for fighter B. that will be awesome it will be more rare than a 10-10, but it's bound to happen some time.

 

[Washad]

How is Erik Koch still in the UFC? Hes garbage.

 

[WalkenWouldOwn]

no worse than the first BJ Edgar fight though, eh?

but yes, it's quite clear that some judges are taking the instructions for more liberal 10-8's more than others.

the fact is, judges scores have always varied widely. they will even more (not less) now that they've been given more leeway. i mean, thinking about it again, is it really that reasonable to expect the scoring to become more similar now that they have been allowed more range with their subjectivity than they used to?

you know what i look forward to? the first time one judge scores a round 10-9 for fighter A and another judge scores it 10-8 for fighter B. that will be awesome it will be more rare than a 10-10, but it's bound to happen some time.

I don't want scores to be more similar. I want them to be correct. I know that's unreasonable, but in some fights it seems like we can get practically a consensus with every fan, media outlet, etc seeing things pretty similar, and the judges will still be completely off the wall with their scores. Some of them are just trolls I swear. How do they keep getting a paycheck?

Obviously in Penn v Siver and Guida v Koch it will get ignored since it didn't effect the outcome. But it's still concerning that people who are demonstrably incompetent get to keep their jobs with no accountability. There are no standards.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

I don't want scores to be more similar. I want them to be correct. I know that's unreasonable....

indeed, this seems to be your white whale.

and while i agree with everything you say, i also think it's either not fixable (or maybe "not fixing under the current regulatory system".) i agree with you, and had to let it go for my own sanity.

one year i was as fed up as you sound today, reviewed a bunch of boxing matches, and found that all 3 of the judges did not agree on over 1/3 of the rounds (of my admittedly small sample size). that made me think to myself:

"a) mma has more subjectivity built into the judging. b) mma is exponentially more complex than boxing. and c) judging in boxing has lots of variance/deviation. if all three of those statements are true, can we ever expect mma judging be more uniform (e.g. judges agree with each other and/or the majority of the general public) than the relatively simplistic sport of pugilism?"​

that perspective helped me. maybe it will help you. if not, try the serenity prayer cheers.

 

[UseARubberGuard]

I had it 29-26. Loved seeing that card given out

 

[WalkenWouldOwn]

indeed, this seems to be your white whale.

and while i agree with everything you say, i also think it's either not fixable (or maybe "not fixing under the current regulatory system".) i agree with you, and had to let it go for my own sanity.

one year i was as fed up as you sound today, reviewed a bunch of boxing matches, and found that all 3 of the judges did not agree on over 1/3 of the rounds (of my admittedly small sample size). that made me think to myself:

"a) mma has more subjectivity built into the judging. b) mma is exponentially more complex than boxing. and c) judging in boxing has lots of variance/deviation. if all three of those statements are true, can we ever expect mma judging be more uniform (e.g. judges agree with each other and/or the majority of the general public) than the relatively simplistic sport of pugilism?"​

that perspective helped me. maybe it will help you. if not, try the serenity prayer cheers.

Yeah it's been bugging me for a while. Starting when I used to bet a little on fights and seemed to get robbed a lot, lol.

If the judges were competent I would like to see half points or even quarter points in play to better account for how wide a margin a round is won by. But I think you're right and it's just not fixable unless things are scrapped and built from scratch with no boxing influence.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

1. While Koch did nothing, Guida didn't do much either. I think 30-27 is an acceptable score for that fight. I thought it weirder that several judges thought Koch won a round. I'm not about to rewatch it to reevaluate.

2. In MMA it seems that a lot of people consider one of the criteria for a 10-8 is that the losing fighter has to do almost nothing at all. And so the one-sidedness becomes very relative.

In the Guida fight, Koch certainly mounted close to zero offense in one or two rounds, but Guida wasn't beating the hell out of him either. I'd rather see 10-8s tied to one fighter significantly hurting their opponent, like a knockdown via strikes or having a guy very unbalanced by strikes fighting in survival mode, even if the losing fighter did manage to mount credible offense in the round.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Yeah it's been bugging me for a while. Starting when I used to bet a little on fights and seemed to get robbed a lot, lol.

If the judges were competent I would like to see half points or even quarter points in play to better account for how wide a margin a round is won by. But I think you're right and it's just not fixable unless things are scrapped and built from scratch with no boxing influence.

Practically speaking, what is the difference between using half points and just using the full range of the ten point msut system.

How does winning a round 10 to 8.5 really differ from 10-8? Because half points will quickly become standard for any points awarded beyond a 10-9 anyway. So all 10-8s will just become 10-8.5s.

 

[The guest]

I missed the FightPass pre-lims, and didn't hear at any time, after. If the new rules were in effect, or not. But, under the new rules that was a 30-25.

As long as they don't get fucked over. I don't care much about the scores, though. As long as the rightful winner, won.

But, the refs fucked up in the two events prior to this one. Under the new rules, which were in effect. Two fighters should have had a point deducted. And I don't even want to think about that abortion of a stoppage by Mario.

The refs, and judges are pretty much a joke at this point. If they aren't enforcing the new rules, or scoring...

What's the fuckin point ?