How much do fighters really improve?

[SalvadorAllende]

I keep reading like:
Sage is only 19 (despite being 21)
PVZ is only 23
Erick Silva is sooo young (LOL)
Corey Anderson is only 27
Etc....


But Im pretty skeptical that fighters improve that much over time and can become drastically better than they actually are.

Dont get me wrong, most fighters become a more refined version of themselves but usually the p4p guys make it big pretty young:

Aldo was wrecking the top guys in WEC since he was 21.
GSP was 23 fighting for the UFC belt.
Jon Jones career speak for itself.
JDS was killing it in the UFC since he was 24.
Cody Garbrandt is 25 and at the top of his game.
Cruz won WEC title at 24.
Mighty Mouse has been pretty much a top guy since he was like 22/23.


I think that for 90% of fighters you either have it or you dont. Yeah maybe some of them can be green at times and getting caught in a sub or something (happened to almost everyone on the list) but that is pretty much it. They rebound and go to the top pretty instantly.

What do you think Sherdog? Am I being a little too harsh on the "prospects"?

 

[USA!USA!]

Well I mean look at Dillashaw. He seemed to improve leaps and bounds from TUF over the years.

 

[Megatronlee]

Yolo romero

 

[chitoortiz]

From this:

To this:

 

[Candy Routure]

Fighters (for the most part) get smarter with age. If they're lucky enough to have their athletic prime keep up, they're the ones that end up in GOAT conversations.

 

[Congo66]

But Im pretty skeptical that fighters improve that much over time and can become drastically better than they actually are.

How good was the 17-4 Anderson Silva before joining the UFC and winning 16 fights in a row?

 

[KingBeef]

I'd like to think that The Spider improved once he got to the UFC. Man, look at how much Rampage improved from his KOTC days to PRIDE and UFC. It happens for sure.

 

[rerard]

Randy's sub defense went from being a weakness to a great asset.

 

[Tuf_guy]

I've noticed this as common, too. But on the other hand, it may in part depend on their style - what they bring with them, and how much their game will change or rather how developed it is... along with their talent. If a guy is a raw talent, I'd expect that it will show, but he will need to develop - at least a decent team, probably, and some time/experience. If the guy is highly talented in the area he's already gonna be relying on, maybe he doesn't take as long.

But it is odd that more people don't blossom with time.

As an example:
Rampage fought Marvin Eastman for his third fight - Eastman's first MMA fight. Rampage was outmatched. He was facing a pro kickboxer who was a CA state wrestling champion (CA state is ridicilously hard to win or even place, being the largest state and only having one division). Ken Shamrock was really high on Rampage's potential, but Eastman had the makings of a high level fighter - coming in with the abilities he had - and before so many people focused on striking and takedown defense.
Yet Rampage went on to be one of the best ever at lhw, and Marvin Eastman became like a showcase/tune-up type of fight, imo, for Rampage in the UFC.

Maybe something went wrong with Eastman, or maybe he just lacked the untangibles, but it shows that even a solid fighter who came into the game solid may hit a ceiling while the guy with talent can continue to improve in leaps and bounds.

I keep reading like:
Sage is only 19 (despite being 21)
PVZ is only 23
Erick Silva is sooo young (LOL)
Corey Anderson is only 27
Etc....


But Im pretty skeptical that fighters improve that much over time and can become drastically better than they actually are.

Dont get me wrong, most fighters become a more refined version of themselves but usually the p4p guys make it big pretty young:

Aldo was wrecking the top guys in WEC since he was 21.
GSP was 23 fighting for the UFC belt.
Jon Jones career speak for itself.
JDS was killing it in the UFC since he was 24.
Cody Garbrandt is 25 and at the top of his game.
Cruz won WEC title at 24.
Mighty Mouse has been pretty much a top guy since he was like 22/23.


I think that for 90% of fighters you either have it or you dont. Yeah maybe some of them can be green at times and getting caught in a sub or something (happened to almost everyone on the list) but that is pretty much it. They rebound and go to the top pretty instantly.

What do you think Sherdog? Am I being a little too harsh on the "prospects"?

 

[aerius]

Robbie Lawler was beaten out of the UFC, had a losing record in Strikeforce, then came back to the UFC and went on a killing spree to win the title.

 

[lagofala]

We tend to forget about the amount of luck involved as well. Sometimes the talent pool isn't deep at a certain time a fighter rises to prominence. I believe there are too many factors at play to project how a fighter will turn out (such as attitude, ego, injuries, external family issues etc.) I guess that's why it's so hard to make a star. Stars tend to appear organically.

 

[SherdogJoe]

RDA improved a lot I'd say.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

We tend to forget about the amount of luck involved as well. Sometimes the talent pool isn't deep at a certain time a fighter rises to prominence. I believe there are too many factors at play to project how a fighter will turn out (such as attitude, ego, injuries, external family issues etc.) I guess that's why it's so hard to make a star. Stars tend to appear organically.

Luck plays a lot into people's careers even though they most people don't want to admit it.

 

[maxi diablo]

RDA improved a lot I'd say.

Thats the first person I think of when it comes to improvements.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

Robbie Lawler was beaten out of the UFC, had a losing record in Strikeforce, then came back to the UFC and went on a killing spree to win the title.

Robbie case is special for a number of reasons.

In Strikeforce he lost to:
- Babalu at 195lbs. He was clearly outsized and Sobral was a good fighter.
- Jacaré at 185lbs.
- Kennedy at 185lbs.
- Larkin at 185lbs. Bad matchup for him and Lorenz showed he is elite when he is not outsized.
- Shields who is one of the most underrated fighters ever.

In the UFC he was never dominant. You could argue he lost to Hendricks both times, that he lost to Rory in the first match and I honestly think Condit won their fight.

Yes, he had a good run in the UFC but that was 15lbs lighter and he was in a lot of close fights.

Robbie is a fan favorite and he can walk away with a few controverial decisions. But I never thought he was the best WW in the UFC.

 

[g*r*b]

From this:

To this:

I think this is the first post to use the infamous Struve gif that I've ever "liked".

 

[Chomsky Honk]

I feel like Jones, GSP, and MM have all shown improvement from early on in their careers, even though they were still winning when they were green

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

I keep reading like:
Sage is only 19 (despite being 21)
PVZ is only 23
Erick Silva is sooo young (LOL)
Corey Anderson is only 27
Etc....


But Im pretty skeptical that fighters improve that much over time and can become drastically better than they actually are.

Dont get me wrong, most fighters become a more refined version of themselves but usually the p4p guys make it big pretty young:

Aldo was wrecking the top guys in WEC since he was 21.
GSP was 23 fighting for the UFC belt.
Jon Jones career speak for itself.
JDS was killing it in the UFC since he was 24.
Cody Garbrandt is 25 and at the top of his game.
Cruz won WEC title at 24.
Mighty Mouse has been pretty much a top guy since he was like 22/23.


I think that for 90% of fighters you either have it or you dont. Yeah maybe some of them can be green at times and getting caught in a sub or something (happened to almost everyone on the list) but that is pretty much it. They rebound and go to the top pretty instantly.

What do you think Sherdog? Am I being a little too harsh on the "prospects"?

Heath Herring was much better in Pride than in World Vale Tudo Championship, when he was younger (and fatter) for instance

Vernon White got better and better when he went to Pancrase, jus´like Frank Shamrock or Maurice Smith

 

[soulsstealer]

It depends on the fighters.

 

[Bubblun]

What? Can't believe what i am reading.
We have seen fighters that weren't considered much like Bisping, Dos Anjos, Lawler, Werdum, Overeem, Hunt, Miocic, Masvidal, Amanda Nunes became world champions or close to the belt.
If you could go back in time, 10-5 years, and say in this forum that Bisping would became MW champ and beat Anderson, Dos Anjos would became LW champ and destroy Henderson and Pettis, Werdum would beat Fedor and Cain and became UFC HW champ, Lawler would became UFC WW champ, Overeem from a decent 205er would became the most feared HW in the world at some point, Hunt would became a legitimate fighter, Amanda Nunes would beat the crap out of Ronda... everybody would have thought you are insane.

Meanwhile we have seen fighters that were considered untouchable like Anthony Pettis, Hendricks, Machida, Lombard, Rousey falling hard.

This sport is consistently evolving, things change pretty fast.
There is a quote by the great wrestler Cael Sanderson “Unless you continually work, evolve, and innovate, you’ll learn a quick and painful lesson from someone who has.”